Founders' Fears & Failures

How Founders Taboo is Disrupting the Startup Ecosystem’s Approach to Entrepreneur Mental Health with Janos Barberis and Annabelle Cameron

• Dr Melissa Parks • Episode 27

Share episode

Founders Taboo is a UK-based startup working to increase awareness, access, and affordability of support for startup founder mental health and well-being. They aim to solve the problem of founder well-being at scale in order to disrupt the entire startup ecosystem’s view on this topic. They’re building the world’s largest online community and resource hub offering psychoeducation, online support, and connections to providers specialized in offering treatment and crisis support specifically for founders. In addition to online offerings they also offer regular retreats for founders. All of this is available to founders at any stage, anywhere in the world, and you’ll find a link to join below.


With a track record in building world-class accelerators and applied academic research, Janos Barberis has seen first-hand how prioritising the health of the founder is critical to the performance, success and continuity of one’s venture. Janos has turned lived experience into pioneering a movement to build a healthier, more fruitful startup ecosystem with founder wellbeing, mental health and performance at the core.


With a background rooted in psychology, Annabelle works at the intersection of psychology, entrepreneurship and performance, and the relationships between these. Through the Founders Taboo movement, she is working to improve the provision of and access to wellbeing support for current and aspiring entrepreneurs. Collaborating with experts, researchers, and key ecosystem stakeholders, Annabelle and Founders Taboo are driving for a healthier, more sustainable startup ecosystem.


As you’ll hear Janos say in this interview “the world needs more entrepreneurship, not less.” However, we also need to ensure that founders are able to grow their businesses without harming their mental health and relationships, which is exactly what Founders Taboo is aiming to do.


In our conversation you’ll learn about Janos lived experience that inspired him to start Founders Taboo, Annabelle’s observations on the challenges faced by the founders supported by Founders Taboo, and the ambitious and inspiring ways in which Founders Taboo is working to support founders and shift the global conversation around founder mental health amongst all key players in the startup ecosystem.


Any founder can sign up to Founders Taboo, the free online community and resource-hub tailored to entrepreneur wellbeing. Registration form: https://airtable.com/shrg17RA65wjUBi5i


Find Annabelle, Janos, and Founders Taboo online:


Connect with your host, Dr. Melissa Parks, elsewhere:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissacparks/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melissaparksphd

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melissaparksphd/

Website: https://melissaparks.com/

Schedule a free 30 min. discovery call with Melissa to see if executive coaching with her would be a good fit: https://melissaparks.com/free-consultation-call/

If you’d like additional support for your mental and emotional well-be

 Melissa  

All right, Janos  and Annabelle, thank you so much, both of you for  coming on the show today. I said it to you before we hit record, but thank you for being here. It's a Friday afternoon where you are. And hopefully you're going to have a nice relaxing weekend. So thanks for being here before you start that.

 Annabelle  

It's a pleasure. Thank you for inviting us. Yeah.

 Melissa  

Yeah, yeah, thank you for being here. So we I always like to start these conversations, just by learning more about you know how to, we're going to be talking today a lot about Founders Taboo, right. But I would love to hear from both of you. Just how did you get started with Founders Taboo? Yes, let's start with you. Where did the inspiration for Founders Taboo come from? 

Janos  

So the inspiration of Founders Taboo started out of lived experience, I used to be a founder, am a founder actually. But after my first company, when I was 26, it became quite significant as a company, it was the largest financial technology accelerator in Asia in terms of output in the world. I was 26, I just had a small overdraft of 500 pounds. And I bootstraped the company into this. I had no idea that I would build an accelerator the way I did, I ended up building entire ecosystem along the line. But as I created a lot, I also took a lot away from me, which eventually led to essentially an autoimmune condition I collapsed. So it's, it's not a burnout, it's literally I was sick, for about suddenly sick. So suddenly, I was in the hospital. For about two years. And then I took a break, I recovered physically wasn't apart from recovering mentally. And then when I restarted the company, three years ago, I had the PTSD moment of saying I don't want that to happen to me, again, as in building a successful company, but at a personal cost. And so the idea of doing Founders Taboo, personally, came about, but I realized that it's more than just me, it can be an entire company and ecosystem. So I decided I needed help someone that would complement what I understand about entrepreneurship. And I think  you'll see in the entire podcast today. I'll have my perspective on the lens of a question that you have and Annabelle has hers, I think that combination makes Founders Taboo both that entrepreneurial focus with that psychology lens on the problem of mental health and well being of founders.

Melissa  

Yeah, I was so excited about this idea of having you both come on today's I'm really looking forward to sharing both your perspectives. Annabelle, before we get to you, Janos, I just wanted to say, that's so interesting to hear, you know, because you hear founders talk a lot about mental health struggles, and burnout. But I mean, it's, you don't hear as much about the physical consequences, although I always think, you know, our whole body is connected, right? It's, it's, it's all related. So thank you for sharing those details to that for you. It was your like you said, your body collapsed on you.

Janos  

Correct. So it's not to say that you have burnout at the same time, but I think burnout is, it's a serious condition. Right. It's not to be underplayed. But I think it's also that term where when you just can't do anything anymore, you just say it's burnout. But in my case, what really stopped me is physically my body stopped me it was an autoimmune lung condition that then was spreading to other organs. So but that also then brought a burnout to come in. So you know, chicken or the egg, I don't know. But that's why I wanted to be a bit more precise. Because it's, it's factually correct. But also, because I think that sometimes burnout is, is a is a, unfortunately, a convenient way to sometime hide something which is a bit deeper and another level of care. And I think that if we don't understand what we have, we cannot really tackle it. So that's why I wanted to be a little bit more and more precise. 

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's fantastic for listeners. I think burnout can get thrown around a lot too. And it is even you know, even if many more people are talking about it, it is a serious condition and there can be other things going on in your body at the same time. Annabelle, tell us where at what point did you get involved in the Founders Taboo project? 

Annabelle  

Yeah, so my background isn't as much rooted in entrepreneurship, which is why the compliment of us both is quite nice. You see it through a different lens at times. I think I came in with a slightly more outsider perspective more so than lived experience. My background is rooted in psychology. Post studies, I then sort of landed on the research I was really intrigued that it was underserved, a population that was underserved. And there's a lot more work to do there. So I saw what Janos was doing and I joined back in 2021, as Founders Taboo was sort of migrating from an idea born out of lived experience out of hardship to more of a something a bit more tangible and movement and initiative. So, yeah, took a deep dive went through a strong learning phase with Janos, to really put myself in the shoes of a founder and what they go through and really empathize and learn. And then we started putting it together.

Melissa  

Fantastic. Yeah, I remember speaking with you. We spoke earlier a few months ago, when we first met and you I just loved I love hearing the stories of where companies get started and so just hearing your story about you know, just jumping in with Janos from the very beginning to where you were Founders Taboo is today. It's, it's just so exciting to hear. I'm sure being on the inside is even more exciting.

Annabelle  

Yeah, I always think it's an interesting case when you're a startup, supporting other startups, because you go through a lot of the same concerns, challenges, personally and professionally. So it creates a level of relatability to a certain extent.

Melissa  

Yeah. So tell us more about where what is Founders Taboo doing today? What is your mission? What is your vision for the future of supporting the startup ecosystem?

Annabelle  

Yeah, Janos do you want to start and I can add in?

Janos  

Yeah, of course. So there is a there's a, there's a vision on on, we tried to solve, scale, the topic of wellbeing and mental health for founders. And we want to find a way that can be transformative for an entire industry, which is a tough industry, but I think society in general entrepreneurs are are creating wealth and creating innovation, creating jobs, they're creating shifts. And I think in a world that we currently are in, which is a world in crisis, we need more entrepreneurship, not less. So that the capacity of solving solving at scale is important. But it's also complex, because there is a diversity of needs and requirements from founders. And as a result of it, having a single one up solution becomes a becomes a challenge. The reason why we believe we can do that at scale is previously to Founders Taboo, I had the chance, as I mentioned before, to be in financial technology. And we did transform the financial technology and actually even the financial services industry. Globally. We did change it locally in Hong Kong, for sure, with tier one financial institution working with us to drive innovation, which then led on to better customer experience. But then academically, we did that, through my PhD with two of my supervisors that I always tend to quote, which is Douglas Arner and Ross Buckley, where we built the entire regulatory framework for much technology, which is now used for any regulators in the world. So when you see FinTech anywhere in the world, it's typically the regulatory layer comes from the research we've done. And then we've created online courses that have been, I think, Douglas looked at the latest count, it's a quarter of a million people that have seen directly 1:1 that. So not even looking at second citation and things. So a quarter of a million people, every regulations in the world and an entire country has been transformed. So we've done it in FinTech by mistake, we didn't expect to be so big. So I think that now if we have the right intention, and we certainly have the right team at Founders Taboo, we can have the same transformative impact. So that's on the vision, but then practically, on the resource available, I think Annabelle is the single best person for that.

Annabelle  

Yeah. So where we position ourselves or where we sit on sort of a continuum, I would say is psychoeducation, self awareness, preventative, proactive, not so much treatment and crisis support. I think there's a lot to be done on the treatment side, but we know what we are and we know what we can provide. So we have a online community and resource hub, which has hundreds of psychologically informed self paced resources tailored to farmers experiences that they can engage with in their own home. For those who would like to take it a little step further. We do have live support options and online support sessions. And and for those who really are in a position to and open to, and ready to delve a bit deeper than we can go on retreats as well founders retreats, we've got one coming up in a week, I think now. So that's what we do in terms of providing resources. And that is free. Because we really, from the outset, didn't want to place more barriers to founders receiving the support and receiving the education. So everything we have on the platform today is free and will remain free. In the background, we know that to move this forward, it requires a lot of collaboration, sharing of knowledge, uplifting other people. So we're working with researchers, with individuals such as yourself, people working really closely with founders to try and drive initiatives and campaign campaigns. Sorry, that will stay long after kind of we've stepped away. So yeah, there's there's a front end in terms of supporting founders more one on one, and there's a back end, which we're working tirelessly to try and push the agenda forward.

Melissa  

Yeah, and right now, is it? Is it primarily focused on UK based founders? Or do you? I think you told me you had founders around the world at this point.

Annabelle  

Yes, so the platform is open to any founder any stage anywhere, and it is entirely online, which has its drawbacks, but it's also great because it can be accessible to anybody in different areas. So yeah, people across the globe are more than welcome. It's great.

Melissa  

And is there any sort of waiting list or anything? Or just I'm thinking if listeners who want to join themselves? Is it open for them?

Annabelle  

Yeah, there's a registration form, we just get people to fill out very briefly, just because we like to vet that, you know, the individual is a founder so that it remains a safe space. Because we've always said it's private. But yeah, I can send you the link, and anybody's welcome to register their interest.

Melissa  

Awesome. Yeah, we'll be sure to add that in the show notes. And I did. I've seen both of you posting about some collaboration happening in terms of research. Right. Could you tell us more about that, that research that's taking place?

Janos  

Yeah. So on the research side, perhaps, why do you believe research is important. And then there's the outcome. And Annabellle if want to talk about the actual research, and they'll talk about where we looked into this in the first place. So as mentioned, we had a playbook and the way we understand to transform an entire industry is you need practical, the entrepreneurial move, like, okay, let's change the status quo, you need that energy. But you also need that long lasting white glove approach on a topic. The topic of founder wellbeing and mental health has been researched. But it has been researching what happened to say very academically, as and what it is, where it's come from, what are the consequences, but I think entrepreneurs, certainly today, and I think more and more investors, they're moving away from just the observation to the so what was the outcome? So if we work, so for that problem, what does it allow us to achieve otherwise, beyond, you know, personal relief, and, and feeling better? And that's the piece of that research. So we decided to be in academia, we are a startup ourselves, but we want to transform an industry. Startups tend to have a short lifespan. Statistically. It's okay, so many businesses are failing year one, we're now three years old, so we still in and growing stronger. But we always thought, what if we stopped tomorrow? How can something outlast us? And we believe that being able to work with academia, and specifically with King's College, with Professor Ute Stephen, we are jointly conducting a four year research to a dedicated PhD fellow that will be looking at the well being of funds and entrepreneurial team and the outcome that it has. So what are the best intervention? What is the consequence of the intervention? And what does it generate in terms of return? So that's the reason why we've done that partnership, but the reason and then add a bow if you want to add more than that, but that's the reason and that's the context behind.

Annabelle  

Yeah, I think you summarized it really well. It is just kickstarting now. So obviously, there's many twists and turns as you bring a research to life. But I think the one of the main things in the wider study is trying to ascertain the relationship, if any, but I think it's quite intuitive between the well being of the founders, and of course, the entrepreneurial teams and that adventure, performance and venture outcomes. Because a lot of times, we've been asked for the business case if we want to implement it at scale. So hopefully this would be a piece of research that stimulates more research And that business case can really concrete and then there's not much room to argue why not to implement?

Melissa  

Yeah, no, I think it's fantastic. It's an unfortunate though research does take so long, right? I'm like four years from now. Alright, that's 2027. Hopefully you get some preliminary results in interim.

Janos  

It was, it was one of the consideration that we had when when we looked at the different research methods and scopes, but also funding options. And what we came to an agreement towards is, isn't that we have one child that but let's take the single best shot. And if we write that we above any doubt that it is the gold standard, the seminal research on the topic? And yes, thanks for years now, it doesn't mean that, you know, founders cannot get help before, you know, days what you do, Melissa, there's what we do, there is more and more people are doing so I think you have you do have the capacity for founders to be better today. It is out out there. What that research is doing is not saying, let's wait until we understand what founders need to be better. There has been research that has been documenting what are the best intervention for that purpose? And what are the common action that companies do in order for them to be better, the research that is looking at is to so what to after so in a way, is not trading off immediate founder wellbeing for future research, immediate found a well being can be done as of today. But I think it will be even more accepted by external parties, including investors and government, once we find hopefully a correlation between founder well being and business outcome.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. And I, I come from a research background way back when, and so I understand the, you know, the challenges that come from doing that longitudinal research. And, and it's, you know, I spoke with Dr. Michael Freeman another researcher and entrepreneur mental health on the show recently. And, and we talked a lot about this about, you know, how, you know, the hope that there is to really disrupt the ecosystem, and how challenging that is, and it sounds like you you with Founders Taboo and this research, have really set your eyes on a solution, like you said, a way for there to not be any pushback or limited pushback about why is this important. And hopefully those results, you know, kind of demonstrate, you know, that there is a reason, right there is there is a you know, there will be a return on your investment if you invest in founder mental health and well being.

Annabelle  

Yeah, and I think just a point to make about the research, is it is it a collaborative piece, which goes back to the, the need for all of us in the ecosystem, all thoseat  an individual on a collective level working on it to band together. I think that's a quite a nice piece to it.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm, it's gonna take the whole world, right, it was just like that collective push. And, and there have been so many, even in this past year, I've seen so many sort of efforts, kind of start and begin and, and fail, right or pivot. And so I think it's interesting to to just hear that at Founders Taboo you're also just, you know, anticipating that that could happen, but also staying really optimistic. It sounds like as well to say, No, we do hope that we can shift and innovate the ecosystem. 

Annabelle  

We can dream.

Janos  

Yeah, you know, and I guess, you know, just like I was saying, you know, Annabelle and I, we, we have complementary views on this. Take Founders Taboo aside, a general startup, when you go too fast too quickly, with external funding. So when you start raising money without the market fit, you blow up, or you have to go to pivot, because you don't know where you're going. And I think we we've been very clear on what we want to achieve. But I think we equally aware that finding the right market fit just using, you know, founders and startup term. It's a discovery. And, and because we're dealing in, in people's lives, in people wellbeing. We need to take the right time and the right approach to do something that is sustainable. And I think could we go faster? Yes, I think we all want that. But I do think that if I look back at the last two years in the journey, I think we have, by chance or by design, taken the right approach to build the right step, the recommendation along the way. Because it matters too much. Right? It's not a two year thing. It's a 20 year journey to change an entire indstury so we need to last for that marathon. Just like again, it's not a startup thing, which is it's not a sprint It's a marathon. So I think we could get yourself ready with with a marathon ahead of us.

Melissa  

Tell me what are some either one of you if you want to comment, and what are some of the mental and emotional challenges that you're seeing the the startup founders coming to founders taboo for support with?

Annabelle  

Yeah, I mean, I can take a stab and then pass it along to you. Janos I think, of course, you know, you've mentioned Michael Freeman, statistics from his work circulated the system for a long time, they're really strong. So I might not touch on those so much more. So things that we have seen, through the farms we've worked with on an individual level that perhaps aren't necessarily a diagnosis, I'd say one, financial stress and strain, always having to consider how much runway do I have having to have on your mind, the security and the continuity of your team, that have grown with you, the pressure on your family, and also your responsibility to the investors that can bear a huge weight, you don't just have to worry about yourself. In fact, you worry about yourself last a lot of the time. And I think that's a strong pressure. Identity is one that comes up quite a lot on our retreats. When does the company stop? And do I start, some people say that I'm my company syndrome, I think because of the the autonomy, the high degrees of sort of meaningfulness and personal identification with events, it makes it really difficult to have that healthy separation. And some founders might not want that separation, but it's quite important to be able to, because I think if you they're so closely linked, when there is a perceived failure, or a rejection in fundraising, it can be internalized, as it's my fault, I am a failure, you take a hit to your self worth. So I think that's one we see quite quite a lot. I think strain on personal relationships is one that is sort of talked about a little bit, but then it's more co founder relationships that takes the limelight. But I think in terms of familial and romantic relationships, there is a big piece there. And we know that nurturing those relationships is fundamental to your your health and your happiness and your stamina, and sustainability. So I can't overstate the importance of really nurturing them. So they become a source of strength rather than a source of strain. I think that's one that comes up. I don't think and correct me if I'm wrong, but there's any concrete statistics in terms of sort of marital divorce rates, but I think there is some suggestion is probably quite a huge part of entrepreneurship them being quite disproportionately high. And then I'll mention a couple more and then pass it along. One, that so there's the loneliness and isolation, I think, the saying lonely at the top, it's very true, no matter how many you are surrounded with it. It's that feeling of how much do I share with my family? How much do I share with my team? How much do I share with my investors, so always having to balance? I just want to let it all out. But maybe I shouldn't because what are they going to think and then it can feel quite lonely. And one that me and the team and particularly Dani from the team was speaking about the other day was this absence from life. So, feelings of guilt or regret that sometimes surface when you feel that you have missed or a distant or a missing important aspects of your non working life or familial life that you are missing because of work or because your dedication to work, which is an interesting one that I don't think is as widely talked about or surfaces as much and I did bring this up to Janos earlier today, and he definitely had a different perspective. So it might be a good chance to hand it over. 

Janos  

Yeah it's an interesting one because I know we do it, depending on how you look at it, right but so you can say you can talk about impostor syndrome, isolation at the top, the absence of life Um, but it's I think the one which is perhaps easier to go as a different side of the mirror Annabelle brings to the psychology side, I bring the entrepreneurial side, I mean isolation at the top. When you're the first person doing something, by definition, no one sees you. And if you think about venture capital, that's what venture capitalists want to invest in, they want to invest in that one person, or in the first 10 person that are discovering the brand new industry. So by the very nature of using what no one has seen before, that's the reason why there's so much value because if your vision, when there's only 10 persons in the world that see it is correct, you will generate tremendous value wealth, jobs, impact innovation. And so with all proportion kept, I did the very first PhD in the world on FinTech regulation. And that carried me into where I am same with the the accelerator. So, so do you have that element, which is, if no one sees it, by definition, you will be isolated at the top? Is the negative is it a good sign? That's the question. And then, you know, you shouldn't hold yourself up saying, Oh, but I'm you know, isolated at the top, therefore, necessarily I'm the next big unicorn, but just being at this perspective. I think the imposter syndrome is also an interesting one, which is, it's more relatable for most entrepreneurs, because even second time founders, but certainly for first time founders, they discover as they go. And it's impossible not to feel like an impostor, because genuinely you go, I should have stumbled on this one so I still pick myself up. And second time founders are going to have exactly the same thing, even though it may bring the second time company a little bit further than the first one, they may understand the entire blueprint for the first one. But at one point, they're going to be in a situation of like, I don't understand this one. And how do I solve that? And so of course, it feels like, why should I still be there? So in a way, the act of solving so for something that has never been solved before, and then succeeded, you feel you feel a little bit like an imposter? Like, how did I do that? So, you know, that's the other side of the coin? And then yeah, we did talk about the absence of life. And I think, perhaps unfortunately, but, you know, the absence of life, I had that a lot of talks about, you know, romantic relationships. And there's a statistic, I think it's as a professional class. So if you think about the white collar, blue collar is and then you have entrepreneurs as a professional class, they're the most likely class to actually the worst, the rates are, you do have statistics on that. But on the absence of life, I had in past relationship, actually, three times for three different partners. So one point, you know, three times one is a one off two is, is a line three is a trend. I did have comments of saying, I am incredibly lonely when you're nearby, and I don't feel you present, right? So I was not able to live the moment. Because for me, for a very long time, less now. What's scared me was not the absence of life, it was the absence of work, because I was only working. And so not having work. So for example, and I've said that publicly it was privately. Sundays I feel terrible, because I'm not so Saturday, I kind of still working a little bit. And then Sunday, you really have nothing to do, you always find something. But that absence of work, prevents me from living, I have lived a lot because of work itself. So that's perhaps another way of looking at it. Not necessarily saying it's a good thing. But sometime, it's it's important to understand why founders are looking at it this way. And then, it is important sometimes to say that, no, we can also talk about relationships. Certain founders do really love their job, they do have that passion. But unfortunately, passion, love and energy. There's only so much to give around. And as a result of it, at one point, there's gonna be a trade off. There's gonna be a trade off between your company and department that you love is going to be a trade off between the energy you put into your company and the energy you put in you for you to stay healthy. And it's hard for founders to accept that it's a deduction game. Founders create wealth power, they create something out of nothing, so if there's zero they create 100 But unfortunately, I think energy and time you deduct your take out. And founders I think don't necessarily think that that's why they always think that no, I'll create, I'll generate more wealth, more energy, more power, more passion. But it doesn't work that way it works for companies, but doesn't work for human life. I think that that is difficult to grasp. When when you have that mindset, it might be obvious when you don't know about it. But when you have the mindset, it is very difficult to link those two dots.

Melissa  

So there's so many things, both of you said to that, I'd love to dive into a bit more. Yeah. knows, I heard what I heard you saying was that the loneliness, and then the loneliness and impostor syndrome, it's almost sounds like you're saying those are kind of like, like, inevitable or necessary parts of the job. Right? Is that what is that what you were saying? 

Janos  

So I once heard it very well, which is, you know, entrepreneurship is hard. And but it shouldn't cause hardship. So I think impostor syndrome, perhaps, inevitable, I mean, you'll also have entrepreneurs that have this trait, hyper, you know, hyper narcissistic moves. For them imposter syndrome is not a thing. So, no, I don't think it's universal. But I think there's it's important to challenge yourself and always ask, Am I the right founder for that problem? At any given time, but that questioning of yourself shouldn't verge into a negative. So impostor syndrome is also a driver, right? Because you think that you, you cheated. And I had that feeling when I did the first company. First year of Supercharger FinTech, for Supercharger FinTech, we were the most successful already in Hong Kong, compared to the other two accelerators was like, I got lucky. And then second year, I got lucky. And then third year, I got lucky. And I kept on working harder because I was upset that I was lucky the first time around. I wanted to prove myself that No, no, it's not luck. It's hard to work and, and I've accepted it. And but the problem with that is, personally, it's not healthy. But again, it's always important to go Why is the person not helping them was not healthy for the company. If I have been more convinced that the our success was linked to my capability, and my execution skill, we would have scaled internationally, way more faster than what we did. And one of the mistakes that we've made on Supercharger. We literally had a highway to contain offices in Asia in a year after the second year. But because I've been because I've had that impostor syndrome. I was a 27 year old by then, kid with an overdraft bootstrapping the company and just handed over this. No, I was lucky when I was not I was actually I was actually timely, if not good. And we should have scaled immediately. And the reason why I'm saying that to founders is embossed imposter syndrome can be self disability dating, so it really affects you. But sometimes founders to the point about you know, what we found is come to Founders Taboo for, all the founders say I have this but I want to become that and to become that I want to become a better leader. I think it's important that we connect where the company can be and where your well being can be in the future that the founders go towards that goal. And so if we tell founders saying look, imposter syndrome will affect your well being in relationship with personal work etc. But it will also affect the confidence at which you will carry yourself towards investor to then scale or your team by the way, your company. I think by doing that, then suddenly you justify yourself Okay, I'm gonna start taking care of myself and I'm going to start tackling the impostor syndrome. If you don't do it for you, you do it for the business. And the moment you have that, then you start acting. 

Melissa  

I have a question for Annabelle, what? What about I imagine you have founders coming to you, right? Who they're recognizing, okay, the resources you're offering are fantastic. But I need more. I need to work with somebody one on one or I need them. Yeah, sometimes, or maybe I need co founder support or something like that. But maybe they don't have the funds for it. What kind of recommendations? Do you get founders in those cases?

Annabelle  

Yeah, so I think, without a doubt, therapy and coaching can be inaccessible, to certain founders because of the finances. I think there's no way around that. I do think there are a lot more initiatives, individuals and companies that are trying to change that provide more affordable options. More Happy is one of them, that we have encountered recently, I know there's Self Space, Better Help, there are individuals trying to bring that down. I think for somebody who, good first step, if you can't quite get to that point, there are good alternatives in terms of community based support and interventions, finding a mentor or having a strong support system, finding an accountability partner, I think there are ways to take a step without having to take that big step you might not be able to do at that time. I would say as well for founders that it is difficult. In terms of finances, they do have the capacity. But the thought is that that money is best spent put into the business or best spent elsewhere. It's a tricky one. Because yes, I spoke about this a while ago trying to understand his perspective. And he was saying, as a founder, why would you invest X amount in yourself when you could put it into your business and potentially yield a 10x return. So in those cases, that I try and help them understand that it is an investment in yourself, it's an investment in the business, it's not time lost, it's time gained in terms of productivity, creativity, innovative capabilities. So if it's the case that you want to put those funds elsewhere, and you're not ready to kind of take them out of the pot that you could put into your business, then that's perhaps what I would say. Something my colleague actually said as well today is that in times of, for those people that don't believe they have the time, which I know for a lot of founders is the case of time and headspace. For those that don't have the time, it might be those people that need it the most. So something that was in a paper by Ute Stephens recently was the recovery paradox. So for people in an intensely stressful career context, those that need recovery, the most 10, it tends to be the most elusive. So some therapy options, and therapists do have sort of strict and regular schedules, but then some counselors and therapists and coaches can work to find a frequency that works for you and work around you. Yeah, I think that was a couple of them.

Janos  

The other way of, I think the so I agree with with both your point, Melissa and, and obviously what I was saying about, you know, founders not justifying to invest in their well being or to tackle it, or the mental health depending on the intensity of the difficulty. I think it's a I think it's a broader issue. I think, in general, founders are not willing to pay themselves, period. That founders, you know, they decrease their salary. They pay themselves last, which, that's fine, right? I can understand that. But they don't pay themselves well. It's okay to pay yourself last prepare yourself, well, even if you're the last one. And I think founders don't do this. And I think there's a myth that that somehow the venture capital industry got away with. And it kind of goes like this, which is you get an external investment from from a fund or, or an angel investor. And, and then they, and then they go okay, well, you know, I mean your compensation package, I mean, you already have a lot of the equity of the business, that's part of the compensation package pays up a smaller salary. And anyway, you have so much equity, look how much I paid 2% or 5%, wow, you so well off and you reduce your salary, right. But that's not how it actually works. Like, you work for a salary, you're selling the equity, the founders are selling the equity to the investor, not the other way around, there's not like an investor hiring you and giving your stock options on top of a salary, the equity is yours, and it's worse for you to sell. So somehow, in that investor discussion, investors have been able to make you feel that you don't own your equity. When you actually do, and therefore they make you feel like oh, yeah, but you know, oh, you have the equity and so pay yourself less of a salary. So number, those are two separate discussion. One discussion is I'm selling the equity for you to invest. And the other discussion is, I'm getting rewarded and paid for a job I do every day. And founders really have that issue on that. Unless, when you second part time founder, you it's a professional job. There's a right for for founders, there is a right for salary that precede seed, series A and just to talk to Founders Taboo. I don't know too, I will relate to the audience in the US. So I'll talk about the European numbers. But a European founder average salary as of 2022, we might change a little bit in 2023, but not a lot, is 50,000 euros preseed, which is about 60,000 US, it's 1000 euros seed, which is 100,000 US. And it's 120,000 euros Series A, which is about 150,000 IS. So if you're a founder here listening to this, and you are under that salary first, it can also be the business circumstances, right. So don't only start, you know, driving too much. But when you're having those discussions with those investors, you're not asking, don't ask more than the average. And I have the feeling that even that average is much more than most founders individually, that doesn't allow themselves to draw even $2,000 a month, which is by any factors, two and a half times less than a preseed stage founder or five times while or seven, eight times less than a series A founder. So pay yourself in when you pay yourself, you suddenly allocate a budget for you to take care of yourself, even though what we've always said on Founders Taboo is it should be a company expense. A it's more tax efficient, but also be your company benefits from your well being period. You you buy automation software for your sales team to be more efficient. Fine. Therefore do the same thing for your well being.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah, such an so many important messages there. I mean, it then financial stress can be such a huge factor and mental health and well being. And so thank you for Yeah, and thanks for sharing those numbers, too. And I was gonna say, too. Now I've lost my train of thought, which I've been sometimes. But yeah, so what I wanted to ask you, we're talking about investors and I wanted to ask that, because that's a conversation I think that's really important, too, is what role should investors have in all of this should should they be paying? Or should they be, you know, setting up agreements with their founders about mental health and well being treatment, kind of support and treatment?

Janos  

For this, we, there's a list that we working on, I don't know Annabelle if you want to bring that up and talk about it. It is important for us to have systemic change, not just for founder well being whether it's sustainability, whether it's any big topic, there's an expression, which is you put your mouth where you put your money where your mouth is. But also if you want systemic change, you need to move money. You want to create a more sustainable world, we need to reward green finance, you want a more equal world of genders, we need equal pay of salaries between men and women. Money moves the world. That's how it is, we're not going to fight that. Therefore we need to change the way money is allocated for founders. And we therefore need to make a business case which goes back to the point of the research, which goes back to the point of the differentiation that we saw a few years ago. We need to make a business case for the wellbeing of founders not just a human case, the human cases empathy, it's up to people, culture and times, the business case is a bit more neutral, universal. And there are numbers. And the moment we can make the business case, it's billions, if not trillions of dollars that will change hands, from, you know, a closed hand to an open hand that needs to be more caring, which I think is important. And on that side, we've we've done something beyond the PhD research and initiative that Annabelle if you want to talk about,

Annabelle  

Yeah, yeah, I can share, I just wanted to briefly call that to say that there is a lot of contention around who is responsible, you know, the duty of care, where does it lie, and I think fear of doing wrong, sometimes stops taking an active step. And that is understandable. It is a new field in terms of entrepreneurs and supporting them in the venture space. So I think it's, it's okay, not always to know what the next best step is. But it's still important to have that willingness to try. And to give it a go and acknowledging that raising capital, fundraising, being in those environments, being at that stage for a company for a founder is an intensely stressful time, arguably one of the most in their journey. So if there is going to be that stresses, those stresses, and that pressure placed on founders then needs to be a crutch and some support given at the same time. And it's not just of benefit to the founders, as Janos has said multiple times during this session is not just about reducing the psychological price for founders, the impact and detriment to their health. It's also the potential for positive impacts in on failure rates, improvements in success, better returns and better ROI sorry. So that whichever way you view it from whichever lens, I think there's a positive and at the very least, warrants a discussion. And yes, great things such as you know, Balderton introduced their wellbeing program recently for founders which is brilliant. But there are things that you can do before that, to take a step to have an active stance, you know, being upfront and transparent, bringing transparency into that founder investor relationship, but also just acknowledging the pressure and the stresses that founders are under bringing that into the conversation, it's almost not that you need permission to look after yourself, or that you should justify looking after yourself. But to hear it is nice, and it does help. Even if it's just helping yourself know that it's okay to invest in yourself to prioritize yourself. So even bringing that honesty and transparency into the conversations, whilst a small step and not necessarily any form of professional support or program in place, is still a way to move that relationship into one that's more empathetic and less structured or robotic in a sense. Yeah, that was a supposed to be a small point. And it went off on a tangent, but I leave it but yeah, the term sheet was sort of born from what we've just been speaking about is how can we put in place something in place that's more structured that gives permission for founders to invest in themselves and also has a fund for them to be able to do so creates some space for them to be able to do so. So what we have been working on is a term sheet which includes a line clause, which hopefully, will allow founders to create their own policy documents. And obviously, discuss these with the investors, but what they are going to do to support themselves and what that will take.  

Melissa  

Yeah exciting, exciting. I just love hearing about Yeah, all of the the ways you're disrupting the ecosystem. I can't wait to see see just the impact that it continues to have over the next few years. We do have to start wrapping up our conversation. I couldn't. I have so many questions I didn't get to today. But I always ask guests at the end of the show this kind of a question. Let's go. Janos so let's go first with you. If we could go back to the beginning of your entrepreneur journey. What words of advice or encouragement would you want to give yourself?

Janos  

It's a funny one, right? Because it's like I was telling to Annabelle before, because I don't know, if I would have wanted to do things differently. Because I think that if it wasn't for that lived experience, I could have been, you know, ignorance is bliss and just be blissfully happy. And therefore there is no pain or there is no fire or there is no passion, that wouldn't be a cost to fight for a company to build. So I, I don't know, if I would have wanted to give myself an advice to take a different path. Because I do think that my own journey in happiness in difficulty, now can help 1000, 100,000 have to take a different path. So I don't know, if I mean, if I have a multiplier effect that role, then perhaps it's worth it. I do think, however, that if I was to give us a piece of advice to me now, because you know, being a founder, it's, as we said, it's a marathon, it's, it's decades in the making, or it's an overnight success. decades in the making. I would say, enjoy things more. Allow yourself to enjoy things more. I would say be thankful to the things that will always stay around you. Typically family stand around you, I only recently got to spend much more time with my mother and my grandmother, I'm doing way more than I used to, but I spend more time with the people that will always be there for you. Friends, most of the time, fall into this category, this friendship, then relationships is a bit the same thing. But I think it's it's enjoy the ride. Be kind to yourself, and and then accept the love and what you love back to people around you. It's you may not. But try to understand that. And for the people which are around the founders understand as well that their absence the absence of being present, like Annabelle saying or the absence of life is not that they don't have passion for you. It takes time for them to come to the point where the expectation of friendship or love comes with your realization that it's actually needed for you. So I think those those would be the things I would say, from now on. I guess for me, it started two years ago, but I wouldn't change the eight years prior.

Melissa  

Yeah, you're not the first guest who said something like that, like, what I really want to change anything. And I think that's an important message for founders now to to hear, you know, no matter how tough it is, right? There might always be a reason why you're going through it and you could use it, use it in the future. Annabelle, I also want to ask you, if we could go back I know it's just a few years back in time, but just at the beginning of your journey with Founders Taboo, what would you want to tell yourself back then?

Annabelle  

I think a couple of things did come up recently speaking with the team. One to be more bold, I think a lot has changed in the last couple of years a lot still to do. But there has been a lot more positive movement. Maybe it's just the LinkedIn bubble, that I've ended up meeting a lot of people that are passionate and care for this topic. But yeah, being on board, there was a lot of resistance, difficulty initiating conversations, a lot of contention around the topic. And when you're faced with that resistance, sometimes not necessarily doubt yourself, but it sometimes stunts the energy, you have to push it forward. So you kind of take a step back, so I'd be more bold, but also trust that there is a natural progression to things like this. Timing is a huge part of this. And once you can try and capitalize it, it does need to run its own course to a certain extent. And just trust that people will start to pick it up and jump on board and move it forward with you. So yeah, be bold and have some trust in the process.

Melissa  

Yeah, I love that. You're talking about the marathon there as well. Right. And like you said, not an overnight success kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, patience is so important. So how can listeners find you how can they learn more about Founders Taboo or connect with either one of you? I know you both on LinkedIn, for instance.

Annabelle  

Yeah, absolutely connect with us both on LinkedIn droppers message, we're always open for chats. Follow our LinkedIn page Founders Taboo which our lovely team posts tips and tricks every week to support founders and keep up to date with any live events we're doing, because we'd like to ramp them up more this year. And then hopefully, we'll send round a registration link to have some founders join our community.

Janos  

So for the ones that want to discover a bit more Europe. We're running a series retreat. July will be tight. But in December 2023, we'll do one we'll be in Austria will be my my village. And then the following year, we'll again do it in Austria, most likely, we'll do it in other places in Europe. And then let's see us. But if some of you want to join us physically, the best way is to follow on LinkedIn page, because we are starting much more to do community events. It doesn't scale. But you know, back to the entrapreneurial world is for the first 100 users or 1000 users do things that don't scale, do the right things, to really understand people. And I think we came to the realization that it's equally rewarding, if not more, and that's a very helpful question.

Melissa  

Yeah, wonderful. Well, definitely, yeah, we'll include information reminders about those retreats in the shownotes. And I know there are some listeners who we have, you know, just different parts of the world, not just only in the US. So hopefully, there's some people listening who are who will get interested in that. I'll also include a link to the Vulnerability podcast because I know you're, I think sponsor of that. That's how I first found out about the two of you. And that's anyone listening to this show. You will love the Vulnerability podcast. This is just fantastic. And James, the host has just such great energy too.

Annabelle  

Yeah, absolutely. It's always a fun time filming with James.

Melissa  

Well, thank you so much to both of you for being here. Really appreciate you taking your time out of your busy schedules and can't wait to share this this show with the world. Thank you so much.