Exited Founder and Author of “Founder Therapy” on Successful Entrepreneurship without Burnout with Mike Buonaiuto

This week on the show I’m introducing you to Mike Buonaiuto, exited founder and author of the recently released book, Founder Therapy.

Mike is a philanthropic business leader and performance coach, who founded, scaled and exited Shape History, the award-winning social impact agency. ​ He's currently a senior advisor; helping companies nurture their people, navigate growth and negotiate pivotal moments of transformation.

His book Founder Therapy was published June 2023 and explores why founders are more susceptible to anxiety, depression, and burnout. His TEDx talk, ‘No wonder people are quitting - business must do better’ was selected and featured by TED’s Editor picks. Mike supports Virgin Startup as their ‘Entrepreneur In Residence’ and NatWest’s Business Accelerator as their ‘Business Startup Coach.​’

In this conversation we explore Mike’s own journey as an entrepreneur, including an experience with burnout that almost cost him his life. We also discuss the inspiration behind writing his book, why its essential for founders to care about their own mental health, and that of their team, and how founders and leaders can innovate without burning out along the way.

TW: In this episode there’s a mention of suicidal ideation so please decide if this is the right episode for you or not.

FOUNDER THERAPY: 50 Lessons To Start, Scale & Sell Without Wounding Our Wellbeing. In partnership with NatWest, Unrest and Founders Taboo, Founder Therapy pulls together research from neuroscience, with experience from top-performing entrepreneurs, to present 50 lessons to start, scale, sell without wounding our wellbeing.

The book also presents the case for a proven link between effective stress-management and commercial success. It's specific, due to my background, in comms and marketing business, particularly scaling and selling an agency. The project is in response to research from UCSF, linking higher rates of mental health issues to success-driven entrepreneurship.

Learn more about Mike’s book here: https://www.mikebuonaiuto.com/founder-therapy

Get your copy of Mike’s book, “Founder Therapy” on Amazon: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1781337985/

Learn more about Founders Taboo:

https://www.founderstaboo.com/

Find Mike online:

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• Website: https://www.mikebuonaiuto.com
• Instagram: http://instagram.com/mike_shapes/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-buonaiuto/

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Connect with your host, Dr. Melissa Parks, elsewhere:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissacparks/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melissaparksphd

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melissaparksphd/

Website: https://melissaparks.com/

Schedule a free 30 min. discovery call with Melissa to see if coaching with her would be a good fit: https://melissaparks.com/free-consultation-call/

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If you’d like additional support for your mental and emotional well-being as a founder please visit Melissa’s website for a list of resources to help you find a coach, therapist, or peer support.

Transcript

 Melissa  

Thank you so much, Mike, for coming on the show. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.

Mike  

Yeah, you're welcome, Melissa. It's lovely to be here.

Melissa  

Yeah, we were just chatting about how we, we crossed paths on LinkedIn, just, I think a week ago, and we managed to get this podcast set up. And I'm, I'm so happy that we connected. It can be, I interview very busy people on the podcast. And I can imagine with your recently launched book, you've got a lot going on. So thanks for making time for this.

Mike  

Yeah, it's been a pleasure. And I loved what you're about on LinkedIn. And I'm excited to talk with you not just about the book, but about just generally kind of found a well being and, and how we can build better businesses, you know?

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. It's so exciting that the people I've been able to connect with since especially since launching the podcast, that are also just passionate about this topic. It's, it's great. I really think that we're reaching a sort of a tipping point or something in the ecosystem with just more more people talking about this topic 

Mike  

It feels like it. I mean, I hope I hope it does. Maybe I'm just sort of circulated amongst like minded folk who more and more are talking about this. But I mean, I think is we have an emergence of younger folk who are starting companies who are far more able or ready to talk about their mental well being, together with, I think, a mental wellbeing movement across more corporate life, too. And the emphasis on looking out for your teams mental health, I think, through a series of osmosis, hopefully, we're getting to a place where founders really need to prioritize their, their mental well being to be sustainable enough to reach that finish line, whatever that looks like for them.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah, that's the hope i also have that question like, is it the what are the yellow car phenomenon or something like that, right, where you just like, you're just surrounded by stuff. But let's hope let's hope that we are we're writing that we're seeing a change. So Mike, before, before we launch into your book, and just hearing about what inspired you can just tell us more about your own entrepreneurial journey? How did you get to the point you're at today?

Mike  

Sure, yeah. So I was working in the States, and I was working for the United Nations do some great human rights work, got back to the UK. And I couldn't find I have an advertising background. And I really couldn't find something that suited my expertise, I didn't want to go back to working for sort of faceless brands, I wanted to start and continue the work I was doing with social impact. So started a small at that time, social impact communications agency called Shape history, got some angel investment to get going. And fast forward eight years later, is one of the UK's leading social impact communication agencies. And it works with the United Nations, the WHO, and many other good cause organizations and companies around the world furthering social impact and behavior change, to create a, I guess, a positive change in the world. And so at the beginning of last year, I went through an exit of that business, something I never imagined when I started doing, but was grateful for the opportunity, not just for the financial freedom that it gave. But also because I'm still involved in the company, I'm still on the board, I'm partially still invested. So I'm along for the amazing ride and the successes that that those guys are going to achieve. But also, there was a ton of other stuff that I wanted to be doing with my time. Other than just running a company, I wanted to be writing a book, I want to be helping other people who are starting companies. And yeah, a ton of other stuff. So it's, I think, sometimes your career looks a little squiggly, and it doesn't tend to go in a straight line. But I'm a big believer in just sort of following what feels right. And it's a lesson in the book, you know, don't build beautiful cages don't build beautiful things that trap you always have a way of giving it to others, or embracing the freedom of life, you know, you shouldn't be just stuck in one career for the entirety of your of your existence.

Melissa  

Yeah, so I, I've had the chance to read some of your book this week. And I did read that part. And I thought it was such a unique perspective, because we don't hear often enough about you know, going into a company and having an exit strategy. You might write like, like, Yes, try to sell your company for millions or billions of dollars. But I love the way you spoke about it. Can you tell us a little bit more about that the don't build beautiful cages?

Mike  

Yeah, I think it's important to build companies in a way where you don't if you don't want to sell them, and then maybe exit in the future, right? If you if you go in with an exit strategy at the beginning, people are gonna sniff out the lack of integrity that you have, and it won't, I don't think it will be as successful as it could be. It won't reach its potential. And too many people fall over at that early stage. With the way I like to approach it is just you look around at the company you've built and you want it to be beautiful. You want it to resonate with people, but at the same time you don't want it to be a cage and so often in life are the things that we do not just our careers tend to be cages, and some of those compromises are worth it, and some of them aren't. And one of them that isn't worth it is your mental well being. And it got to a stage where, you know, scaling the business as I was scaling it, and reaching the levels of sort of team size and revenue and valuation that we were reaching. It was too much for the shoulders of one person, I was a solo founder. And so, you know, that idea of building something beautiful, but it not being a cage it not trapping you. And also, as a founder, we glue our identities to our businesses so closely, and it has to be that way. I think founders because the business doesn't have a brand and itself in the early stages of being a startup that the identity of the founder sort of intertwines with the identity of the business, and to help you find resonance. But along the way, that has to shift that has to change. And too often I meet founders who we often say, when you're sitting across a table from a stranger at dinner, what do you want to be the most interesting thing about you? Is it that you're running a company? Or is it that you just ran a marathon or that you are interested in cycling, or you have a wonderful family? And, and too often as founders, I think we lean on the fact that our businesses are the most interesting thing about us and, and we've become quite one dimensional beings.

Melissa  

Yeah, I think that's a great actually challenged anybody listening, like, make sure you have something else to talk about when you're sitting across the dinner table from somebody? 

Melissa  

Yeah. Yeah, well, I did it for years. Because it was quite interesting. It was very interesting what I was doing, and I was working with some incredible people very fortunate and grateful to be taking on some great staff. But, you know, as we say, in the book, you know, there might be 20% of you, that makes you really great at your job 20% of your personality that you use 100% of the time, because that's the stuff that is the secret sauce that makes you successful and profitable. But then there's a whole 80% of who you are as a person that you just disregard or discredit for maybe a decade of your life or longer. Because it doesn't make you money, or make you successful. And that's really sad.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. And I know you have a story you share in the book about really learning the hard way, you know, some of those mistakes you were making? Can you tell us more about that?

Mike  

I mean, it was, as I say, in the book, you know, burning out is a series of moments, not just one moment. And it's like when you look at yourself in the mirror, and you don't notice the subtle changes in your appearance, because you look at yourself every morning in the mirror. But if you haven't seen someone for 5, 10 years, you suddenly can see the difference in how they are because we all change, right. And I think as a novelist, as founders, as human beings, we need to be conscious of the choices we're making and how it's changing the way we are and, and how potentially burnout is beginning to creep in. And for me, I hit a mental health dummy I didn't really know existed, I always thought I, I thought I was brilliant, and everything was peachy. And I was killing it at work. And they often, you know, fake it till you make it tails that founders tell each other, or tell themselves to lean into the longevity required to get the job done. But I think that was the story I tell in the book is I was just driving home one night after a particularly hard day at work, I can't remember exactly what happened pretty much straw that broke the camel's back. And I remember not wanting to be in control of the situation anymore. Because all I felt like I had to be in control of everything. And I was sick of it. And I did a really stupid thing. And I let go of the steering wheel of the car that I was driving and managed to stop before I'd I mean, I hit a little bit of a barrier. But I managed to stop the car from getting into an accident, pulled it into the laybuy I just sat in tears. And I remember thinking that that would be my moment. I wouldn't go any further. That would be that had to be the moment that I thought that action had to be taken. And so through a lot of it's interesting, I found a way of speaking about that story, cuz people are asking quite a lot because the book that it did detach it from the emotion of it, because it's still something I attach a lot of shame to doing that thing. But one thing I will say is, you know, through going through that that terrible episode, I managed to do some therapy, learn about how I could become a better leader and a better founder, not for just others but also for myself and to set in motion. Three years later, something that would changed my life and the lives of others going through an exit that allowed everyone to to have better life choices or to take more control in a better way, you know, and it led to a really good place, thank God, because too many founders are burning out, and we see it every day. But we see it, we see it as sort of a casual drinking or bad relationships or, you know, is meaningless conflict. And I think we don't pin it down to the fact that, you know, there's fundamentally things in our lives which which need fixing, which are causing us some deep pain. And that could be the thing, which is actually making you profitable, or making you successful, and therefore, you don't want to really give that up. But it's important to.

Melissa  

Yeah, well, I'm so glad that you've gotten to a place where you can share that story, because you're not the only one with that story. Right? And unfortunately, some people don't have it the have it become a wake up call, right. And there are too many stories of founders who have ended their lives. And there are so many factors that go into too, you know, like having that feeling of feeling like the world is on your shoulders.

Mike  

Yeah, I don't actually like thinking about it. To be honest, this is a way as I said, I can speak about it. Because I have to, I don't think you can genuinely write a book called founder therapy and not dive into what happened to make you aware of the fact that mental health is a vital part of growing a company. But, I mean, I came from an advertising background and advertising, I think, as a career is, is rife in burying how you feel, in toxic workplaces, in toxic status culture, in fake it till you make it all the things which which the book tries to, obviously pave a better way, but I think some of those bad habits rubbed off. I had some wonderful past bosses and wonderful experiences and role models, but also in the environment of advertising. I picked up some bad habits, and it seeps through.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. And I think once you get in the startup world, too, there's just even more of that message of like, burnout to being a badge of honor. Right, like, just keep going fake it till you make it, hustle.

Mike  

Yeah. What was interesting is, what was interesting is also how comforting I felt being busy. And so it's not just a thing of losing out on revenue or losing out on opportunity. If you haven't got your laptop open at 10 or 11 o'clock at night. It's that it felt it didn't feel comfortable without my laptop open because I therefore wasn't being productive. And I through therapy, and now with other founders, I dive into, you know, what are our drivers and triggers that make us what we call the profitable poisons. So there are things about yourself fundamental things about yourself that you've learned, often through childhood or early adulthood, which make you successful. So for me, it was a hyper vigilance around money that came from a childhood where money was often a serie money was often a source of negativity or arguments. It was never anything that will positivity so to speak, right. And so I learned to be super hyper, hyper vigilant around money, both my personal personal finances and then the finances in the business. That in turn made me really good at running a company, it made it really profitable, because every pound or dollar had to go towards supporting the overall mission of the business and making it as efficient as possible. But, but it was, in turn making me obsessive hyper vigilant to an extreme around money, and also burning relationships I had with senior staff members and with my accountants, accountants hated me. And one thing we tried to unpack now with founders is what are your profitable poisons? What are the things that make you profitable, but come from a slightly poisonous place? And how can perhaps you perform that behavior that makes you profitable, but also don't do it? Because every time I open up my laptop and look at the finances all I feel is anxiety, fear and dread rather than a no, there was no real need to, but it was it stemmed from perhaps bad habits from picked up from early adulthood or childhood.

Melissa  

Yeah, I love that phrasing the profitable poisons. I've worked with a lot of clients who really have trouble, they get hyper focused, and it's like, Oh, this feels so good getting in this state of flow. And then you step back and you realize, like, I have no other life, right? We were talking about, you know, just your life becomes your business, but it felt good for a long time 

Mike  

Being hyper focused is very interesting from a founder perspective from a neurobiological level, which we learned from talking to experts in the book. And we learned that whilst it gives you the hormone that makes you super focused, and that can cause anxiety and stress at the same time, it tricks you and it gives you a healthy dose of dopamine at the same time. So the action that's making you feel anxious or stressed, or hyper focused at the same time is making you feel good for completing that. And for me, it's it's this cool trick that our brains give us. And as founders, we need to kind of unpick that and be remain conscious, because we haven't got a boss telling us to clock off or clock on.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. Because I can imagine like that, that in the long run, it's still it's not a constant dopamine, right? It's, it does have that dress it's wearing on your body at the same time. And you will eventually burn out right, like nobody's invincible to that. 

Mike  

Yeah, definitely. And I think it's it goes, it's important to note that many of the behaviors that are celebrated in the founder world are celebrated, because they are supported by the funders, the VCs and the investors, and trying to build a network of more conscious investors, not just for the book, but generally, for my interest, you know, in in supporting startups, both here and across the pond in the States. I think we need to cultivate a better culture amongst the organizations and people that are giving the money. You know, we've heard emails, we've had feedback that said, from investors, if they received an out of office email from any of the people that they were prospecting, to get investment, then they just wouldn't invest, because founders shouldn't take a day off. And it's just, it's like, do you really want to invest in companies that are going to burn out after five years when they could reach 10 years and be double or triple was profitable, is certainly better to invest in founders that have more sustainability of themselves to reach those goals that everyone's setting, but there's a bit of a toxic culture when it comes to funders and investors.

Melissa  

Yeah, and I'm so curious, what has been some of those conversations you've had? Have you been able to connect with other VCs that do have more of that conscious, long term wellbeing perspective?

Mike  

Yeah, so So through one of the supporters that book actually, which is called they're called founders, Founders Taboo, and they're a great organization that offer retreats for founders, but also connect them with more conscious accesses to for access to funding. There's also amazing organizations like Unrest in the UK, and also Virgin StartUp that do the same thing that more conscious led and more progressive in their way. But I mean, throughout the course of this book, I have sat across many very interesting individuals who I've interviewed and just being amongst because I've tried to soak it up, you know, the knowledge. And, you know, there's plenty of VCs that I've sat across, or have been in the presence of that just said, Screw your ECGs screw your metrics around wellbeing, just doesn't make any profit. And can I get in and out quick? And I don't know how you're going to change these people. I don't know how we're going to bring them along for the ride. But at some point, they're gonna have to.

Melissa  

Yeah, I mean, hopefully, yeah, that the tide takes over. And, and they get out numbered, because I've, that's the messaging I'm hearing as well. And I've heard from people I've invited on the podcast who have told me like, I can't I can't come in and share. I'm in the middle of a funding round. And you know, where I've heard back my VCs, they don't want me on a podcast that has the word failure in it. Right? And I'm like, oh, gosh, we have so much work to do.

Mike  

Yeah, I think I mean, especially with failure, it's super important. For me, I went on a massive journey with the idea of failure. And one of the most senior people out my my company, one of the first hires, who's now the managing director of the business. She, she approached me probably about a year in and we had a big conversation around the the capacity for the team to fail and how we were facilitating that. And together, we built a great structure that allowed for those of the team that wanted to take risks and to start their own department. So to really excel in areas that they wanted to be interested in, that they had the support and backing of the safety net of the business behind them to allow them to do that, bearing in mind that they would fail along the way, and then we'd help would help them sell. But we always have to have that back. But in the very, very early stages of the company, I think I struggled as many do with the idea that people were failing on my time and my brand. And it was a it was a reflection on me, you know, that probably came from, again, those those toxic traits I picked up from working in advertising for years where failure just wasn't an option, because it would it would, you know, potentially lose a client. And in reality, clients are built on relationships of trust and authenticity and integrity, not on slipping out once or twice and learning from it.

Melissa  

Yeah, exactly. That it right, like learning from it. I mean, I just don't know, how do you get through life without failing, but somehow that we do have that toxic culture that says we shouldn't?

Mike  

Yeah, and I imagine many people on the podcast have been through that process. And I think we're always coming. You know, just just this afternoon, I posted something on Tik Tok and on Instagram, because obviously promoting the book, Tik Tok does really well, and the same video on Instagram completely tanked. And I'm there thinking, Oh, God, what have I done wrong? I've failed? And it's like, well, no, it's just it's probably not the right time of day. Or maybe the content isn't quite specific enough to that audience? Or what can I learn from that experience? That makes me better on that platform? Should I wish to post on that platform? You can always choose not to, you know? So, failure is, yeah, it's a journey. And I think we're always tooing and froing with it.

Melissa  

Absolutely. And you're just making me think about something I read in the book, too, about how powerful mindfulness has been for you. Because it sounds like I just heard you now like, you kind of like caught yourself, right? You caught yourself saying like, Oh, no, I failed. And I can imagine that your mindfulness practice has really helped you with noticing those kinds of thoughts.

Mike  

It really has both. I mean, as I say, in the book, and there's plenty of other amazing books that talk about mindfulness in much more detail than mine, I think mine is more of a practical resource of how you start scale and sell a business and throughout that process, do so without ruining your wellbeing. But it does touch on mindfulness, which has been massively helpful to me alongside yoga. And just that process of constantly. It's a bit like a setup, like you're constantly trying to strengthen the muscle that keeps your brain slightly conscious on the choices that you're making, or the actions you're taking. With slight perception on the future and where that might lead you. So you can divert or change, just reminding, remaining conscious in the present. And so often, as founders, we love to live in the future, you know, because that's the more exciting place. But bringing your mind back to the present is is vital. And it doesn't, as I say, the book has to be about mindfulness, it can be whatever practice brings you into that present mode and away from stuff that hasn't even happened yet.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah, I loved how it just you were very practical about the way you described it. And also very flexible too. And, and I've been I've found to also I've really benefit from mindfulness myself, as well. So I'm sure that's why it resonated with me. But I also found that there are a lot of misconceptions about it. So just yeah, having you kind of break some of those myths about what it has to be about. And everyone can do it, right. Everyone can strengthen their brain attention muscle like that 

Mike  

Yes, certainly. And the book does dive into from a neurobiological level what mindfulness does to our brains to to optimize optimizers not just to be healthier, and happier, but optimizes us to be more productive, and hopefully, then our businesses to become more profitable. So it's, it's a vital step. But I always remember the first yoga lesson that I went to, and I absolutely hated it was about a decade ago. And I think people who aren't resonating with mindfulness, just haven't probably found their route to it yet. Because just like yoga, there's tons of teachers, there's tons of techniques and lessons, some are good, some are not some resonate, some don't. It's a completely personal experience.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah, I agree. So if you're listening, keep trying keep exploring. And and I realized that too, we're just kind of jumping into you know what the book is all about. But let's, let's backtrack a little bit. I know you said that. You told me that. Dr. Michael Freeman's research. We just had him on the show. Well, it'll go live the week before this episode goes live. We had him on the show talking a little bit about his research. And I know that that really inspired you to write the book. So can you tell us more about that? Like what? Yeah. How did that work? 

Mike  

I mean, Michael Freeman's research at the UCSF, he interviewed and worked with over 1000 entrepreneurs and founders and business leaders across diverse industries. And he found that those people or people who are more hyper hyper, they lean into being more high achieving, let's say that way, a link tight with higher rates of mental health issues. When they're when they're striving for success driven entrepreneurship, specifically, he found that half of entrepreneurs and founders reported living with mental health conditions such as depression or chronic anxiety. Three quarters of that half that didn't suffer directly, so they came from families significantly affected with mental health concerns. And he also found that entrepreneurs were twice as likely to have depression three times as likely to self medicate, with substance abuse, six times more likely to express symptoms of ADHD perhaps, and 11 times more likely to sit with on within the bipolar spectrum. And whilst some of those aspects of neuro divergence se are somewhat of a superpower, when you're a founder or any, you know, any place of work or life, you know, to be able to lean into those skills that make you wonderful. You know, there's clearly there's clearly an untapped tissue issue here, or it's certainly a conversation to be had. And I think the reason mainly for writing the book, other than my own experience was, I was seeing so many other people experiencing the same things, and then we're talking about it. And other than Michael, Dr. Michael Freeman's research, there's a severe lack of research on the topic, there actually is a big black hole when it comes to how do we talk about commercial success and high achieving, and its impact on us as human beings and our mental health? There's not much out there.

Melissa  

Yeah, it really is, unfortunately, a very that that that exists right now. It just like there's, there's no funding for it. And that's what happens with a lot of the research, right, that the funding needs to be coming in. And I'm so glad that his research is out there. And we need to get the word out, right, which is, I think, why it's so fantastic. You you saw that research, you kind of ran with it, and you're like I need to I need to spread the message and add to it right. And that's a practical, practical takeaways. 

Mike  

Hopefully, I hope the book fulfills its potential in a in a small step towards helping more people realize that this is important. And not just for themselves, but also supporting it for other founders or anyone who's high achieving. Many people who have read the book have actually said that they aren't found as themselves, but it's helped them in their various elements of career progression or struggles. But specifically with Michael Freeman's research, what I thought was, was really interesting was how he links the idea that ambitious individuals are, in a sense, dopamine junkies, I thought this was really interesting. And he said, that this is behavior that would range from self destructive, such as gambling or fast food or drink or drugs. But traditionally, they celebrated behavior such as serial entrepreneurship, cognitive risk taking, persistent workaholism. And these things are celebrated and therefore not discouraged and not seen as destructive. The other thing I will say is there is a piece of research that one of the partners of the book founder of founders to do is doing in partnership with a leading UK university to try and book for to try and finally prove that there is a link between commercial success and mental well being, which of course there is, but we need to get it proved. So this is going to take a couple of years, but they're doing some amazing, groundbreaking work that.

Melissa  

Yeah, and you know, I think what you just touched on as important is that I mean, you didn't, you didn't say it's flat out, but what I hear is, it's going to take a couple of years, right? And I think that's the hard thing about this research is that research takes time. And the startup world moves so fast. But it's, it's a necessary evil learns, just, you know, part of the way the way things work. And so we have to be patient for those for those results.

Mike  

Yeah, I mean, as founders, or high, highly ambitious people, we have all struggled imagine with a sense of urgency or artificial urgency, feeling like everything is urgent. Research is something that just takes a lot of time. I'm not a scientist. And so I don't lean into that into that way of that school of thought, like, obviously, I respect it. I'm very interested by it, but it's not my expertise. I just report what I hear as a as a as a writer and a journalist. But other than things, taking lots of time, I think it's important that we all take action, in the meantime, to make sure that we're living healthier, healthier lives. And so any step in that direction is is hopefully going to be helpful to people.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. And I did read that part of the book about the artificial urgency, which it's another one of those things that plagues the world of founders 

Mike  

It does, yes. I think it's it's to do with how we have a vision for the future and we're impatient for it. You know, we have such a clear vision on where what we want to achieve and what we want to do. But, you know, success is in a race that you can win, because every time you reach a goal and other materializes ahead of it. It About, I think what we say in the book is we try to pick artificial urgency by reminding ourselves being mindful of the idea of for us what is enough. So I speak to founders who, in the early stages would speak to them, and they'd be happy if they just had half a million in the bank, half a million in the bank. That's it. And now they got 70 million in the bank. And it's not enough. They want more, they want a bigger team, they want a bigger office, they want more clients. And, you know, what, for them is enough. And if we can just unpick a little bit of why they started in the first place, what for them is enough success, then maybe they that that goes some way to combat in any feelings of urgency or artificial urgency, because so many of our thoughts towards things that are urgent, in reality, it's artificial, it's not it's things that we're placing upon ourselves. And we're all guilty of it.

Melissa  

Yeah, exactly. Just as humans, right. It's always like, what's next? What's the next milestone next mountain to climb? And that's I love that. That reframe that you put put to founders as though Yeah, what is my enough? That's, that's really powerful.

Mike  

Yeah, just trying to make it practical, but also positive. Because too often, you know, I've read mental health books, and it is quite a depressing read. I wanted to, you know, create something that's a bit more bit more positive. And that resonates with a variety of people, not just founders, but anyone who's high achieving or reaching for success 

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah, it is. Definitely. I feel that same way with the podcast, too, right. Like some people have told me like, I couldn't listen to that episode. It was just too heavy. And it's just fine balance, right? How do we share these stories, but also get get some hope for the future and practical steps that you can take. But I loved how your book has the bite sized chapters, I thought that that was a really nice way to you can just, you know, kind of read it here and there. 

Mike  

Yeah, it was designed so that you could read it on the loo or the toilet. When the founders were in the founders have or anyone who's like highly ambitious, yeah, whenever we have two, three minutes to read a book we never do. So when we're sitting on the loo, I just wanted it there. And then you know, you can pick it up and you can read the chapter. And then hey, you've thought about it. It's also written in a way where there's lots of space, so people can make notes on the pages and really personalize the stories. I was quite specific in how like it designed so that it is easily digestible, but also as relatable as possible. And some of the books that I've read that do that I really love, and I've taken the most from

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. Well, I have to say, I have the Kindle version. So I didn't get the full experience of it. But I do I like some sections were bolded. And like, really stood out and like okay, that's, that's great. You don't even need to highlight that one. Yeah, that's great. I did want to ask, what about, you know, we talked about a lot of the, you know, a lot of the takeaways from this book, right? And a lot of things that that, you know, I've really enjoyed already reading. What about you? What do you think is one of the biggest lessons from the book for founders that you want people to walk away from when they read this? 

Mike  

I think it's the very end, so I'll spoil the ending. But it's not a novel. So we can do that. For me, I think the biggest lesson that I've learned throughout scaling a company is to trust and it dips a little bit into spirituality is to trust the inevitable the inevitability of our, our, the momentum that we put into the world. And to make that specific, if you as I say, in the book, if you could look at yourself, or everyone around you, from a bird's eye view, and you could speed up your entire life or just a decade, you can speed up an entire decade. And you can watch from a well, from a bird's eye view down, you'll start to see that there's tiny little interactions that we're all making, and we're all bumping into each other. And those are influencing us to make the choices and decisions and working together or doing certain projects or maybe taking certain life steps like family or children or moving, all of those things are influenced by the way that we bump into each other. And because we can't see our lives from that perspective, we can't zoom up from a bird's eye view, we have to somewhat trust and know that that's happening. And so when we can get so caught in these tiny little moments, which feel so urgent or feel so pressing, or feel so depressing, because things aren't going entirely our way, know that if you can zoom out, get the bigger picture, you can start to see that your life is just a small nugget in in it in a way that influences so many other lives. And hopefully that all happens for the better. We can only hope that that happens for the better and I think that that dips a little bit into spirituality. But for me, that gives me a bit of hope because I'm someone as soon as I've exited the business. I've jumped into writing this book as soon as I finished the book, and we're doing the public See, after that, what's next? What's next. And you know, it doesn't have to be that way. It can, you can just sort of trust in the inevitability that what you put out in the world will mean something to other people. And that will lead naturally to stuff that you love, and that you enjoy, and hopefully brings you a degree of physical, financial and emotional security, which are the three things that we hopefully go to work for.

Melissa  

Yeah, and what I hear you saying, it's almost like a reframe for the unknown that none of us enjoy, right? It's just, it's actually kind of embracing it, like things will work out.

Mike  

Yeah, and struggling with uncertainty. And in an increasingly uncertain world, you know, as we've written in the book, physical, financial and emotional security, both here and your side of the pond are much more fragile than they really have ever been for this generation. And we look as a generation to the previous generation, and then a series of adulthood success markers, like having children or buying homes, which was so much more attainable, than they are now for our generation, and the generation now emerging into the workplace. And so I think the the real answer, to unpack kind of why not just founders, but many of us are feeling anxious or depressed, is to look at the immediate environment around this and look at, you know, the environment we're working in, and how do we reach financial, physical and emotional security to a level which we feel satisfied with when the odds are stacked so much more against us than the previous generation? I haven't got an answer for that. But it's somewhat gives context to why we're all feeling this way 

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. What do you think is so important, right, and maybe overlooked, it's just, you know, validating, when you're, when you're feeling something, when you're feeling awful when you're feeling, you know, depressed or anxious? I think the worst thing we can do is say, like, something's wrong with me, or I'm the only one. And so what you're saying is, yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense. And you're not alone. 

Mike  

Yeah, if you're not feeling this way, then what well do you living in because, you know, it's everyone's feeling a degree of this, whether they're starting a company or not, and, you know, but if you if you want to start a company, it's never been whilst more emotionally harder. If that's good English. It also hasn't been as it's never been as easy to start a business to, to seek funding to build relationships, to build your brand to get your brand out there. To find a customer base to target specifically those customers using social media, like, it's never been easier to do the things you need to do to run a business, but at the same time, you're operating in a world where financial, physical and emotional security are scarcer. So I think it's business's responsibility to lean into that. Not just small businesses, but but, you know, global global conglomerates as well.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. And so what about, you know, we've talked a lot about the importance of founders and taking care of their own mental health. What about for their teams? What what do you think founders can do to really, you know, care for the mental health of their teams as well.

Mike  

So this is something we put into place at my company. And so we worked with an external company, and amazing organization called scientists, because mental health in the workplace, you know, you have to, you have to draw a line somewhere, and everything is very personal for each individual. And you can't dive into the personal lives of everyone who works for your business. And but it also can't be detached as we're only going to talk about or deal with the things which impact the productivity of you, you hear when you're at work, or, or online. And so we work with this great organization that does coaching sessions and therapy sessions, with each of our members of the team one on one, and then group sessions as well. We also implemented policies and processes that allowed for team discussion to be to influence senior decision making in the business. So that we, to the extent that if we were choosing to explore a new client relationship, we would run it via sort of a moral compass policy to make sure that the majority of the team were on board with the client choices that we were making. And if certain people in the team wanted to work on a certain piece of work or work within a certain sector or idea, then our our team that works on sales, and the business will actively try and find those opportunities for those people. And I think when I talk about mental health workplace, I try to also include the fact of sort of embracing the entrepreneurial spirit and drive for those who wishes those who wish to engage in that because too often, people feel unhappy in the workplace, not just because of what's going on in their lives, but also the fact that that their business just isn't really listening to them and they're just a tiny cog in a large machine that could be replaced at any minute. I like to grill businesses and other way that that really is more human centric. And therefore, you avoid many of the challenges around people feeling anxious or depressed in the workplace, from the depth from the first day.

Melissa  

Yeah, I love that. Well, thank you for giving us an example to how you did that shape history because that? Yeah, I think it's a big challenge for people leading companies, especially as a startup, right? That often you spoke about it like you scale at a speed that you often don't expect. And your team needs you write your they need you to also create a safe space where that they can have their mental health care for as well.

Mike  

Actually, the the wonderful person who wrote the foreword for the book, evil Reynolds, she wrote a lovely line. And she said that the people who are late, I can't quote exactly, because I'm not in front of me. But she alluded to the idea that founders, the people who kind of remake the world, right, and they create opportunities for others. But the people we need also need help. So we have to help them cultivate people who are of a fine founder, Mount mindset. And that includes people who are entrepreneurial within companies, because not all founders or entrepreneurs are the top of businesses, many department leads are many rising stars within companies are entrepreneurial. And the best situation, the best scenario is that we create work cultures that help those people accelerate within the business, give them autonomy, and space and freedom to excel, rather than letting them leave to set up their own business, maybe a competitor like that, that or maybe they they're more likely to, to not be successful that way. Like it's better if they stay within the safety net and the umbrella of the business because that that cultivates their success. So I think it's important to create human centric businesses that consult go somewhere to solve these problems, but also to employ direct experts who are mental health advisors and coaches who can specifically work with your key members of your team.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. I love that. I don't remember this specifically, either. But I'm gonna go back and read it. And remember what she said. But I do I do want to ask one more thing. What about that, like? So, you know, we're talking about this, you and I are really passionate about this topic? What last sort of thing? Can you say to any skeptics who are listening? Right? Or like, yeah, I don't I hear you. But I don't know if financial success is more important.

Mike  

If they're a skeptic, I would probably say, how, how long can you go on? As you are, because if honestly, if you are financially driven, and your business or your, your freelancer, you're you're working in a career and your your salary, the amount you're earning the financial freedom that you're getting from work, and the emotional freedom and the physical freedom, perhaps it's paying for a roof over your head, you know, if that is enough for you, or if that's ticking the boxes, and you don't feel anxious, you don't feel depressed, you're very happy, then we don't want to mess with that. Right? If that's the way that that makes you happy. But I would really question the amount of people that are happy, just by ticking the boxes of being financially secure. Because at the end of the day, it doesn't make you happy. It just gives you a sense of security and freedom from that aspect. But from an emotional standpoint, from a physical standpoint, if your work isn't ticking those boxes, then how long are you going to go before you start addressing this? And are you going to wait for your personal moment of burnout? Before you start to take this seriously? Or are you going to try and nip it in the bud a little earlier?

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cuz I think that's the hope of sharing stories, right? Is that that people will listen and that they don't have to have that story that wake up call, like you described, right? Yeah, that's yes. Yeah. We don't need everybody to have that story. Right. They did. It's not about again, it's not a badge of honor.

Mike  

No, it's not. It's not a badge of honor. It's I think it's important to tell these stories because it helps the the lessons have resonance. But you know, what the whole point of these kinds of projects like the book and the amazing work that the partners are doing is that we stop people from reaching that point of burnout before they do it's about preventative measures, rather than reactive measures.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. Because at that point, some of them already done. Yeah, that's the hope that's the hope and you've mentioned that mentioned founders Tebow a few times and I'm hoping to get Unison Annabelle that who wasn't one of his assistants on on the podcast soon too. So hopefully I'll be able to share them from work that they're doing as well because it's fantastic. And I think now that I think about it, that's probably how we I came across your one of your posts on LinkedIn.

Mike  

Yeah, they've been wonderful at and amplifying the message of the book. And yeah, I'm I'm a big I'm a big fan of their work and what they do to help people.

Melissa  

Yeah, it's fantastic. So I do just I ask all the guests, you know, if we could potentially go back in time, and you know, to the beginning of your entrepreneur journey, what sorts of words of advice would you want to give yourself back then?

Mike  

Without getting too deep. You know, I think from my own for most of my 20s, I was striving towards ideals of success to please. People who didn't need pleasing. And so a lot of my early success was to please my parents, a lot of my early success was to offset certain insecurities I had about myself that came largely from bullying at school. And I kind of, I would say, I would just, I think I would, I would, I would lead with that lesson again, about the trusting the inevitably of the perspective of the future, right? Like, you can't, but if you could, if your future self was looking back at you right now, in this moment, if they're watching you listening to this podcast, and they're thinking, you know, don't worry about the thing A, B, and C that you're worried about, because that's just going to work out. And if it doesn't work out, you'll figure it out. Anyway, I think the lesson is to just trust that you have all the skills needed at this present time to solve whatever issues or challenges or successes come your way. And in the future, you will have more skills, but doesn't mean you need those skills right now.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah, I love it. And, and I've said this other guests too, but like, we can't go back in time. But I think it's a good exercise even to ask ourselves right now like, okay, 20 years in the future. What do I want that future self to tell me right now? And, of course, it's

Mike  

just chill out. Probably. Just chill out. You figure it out. Yeah, love people will read the book. People read the book, don't worry about it. 

Melissa  

It's gonna make a difference. Right? Yeah, it'll make the difference that it needs do. I love it, Mike. Well, I hope that this podcast, you know, gets gets the word out to even more people. Where's the best way for listeners to connect with you?

Mike  

On social media, all over the place. Also, if you check out my website might go to youtube.com. Or just Google founder therapy. That's probably an easier way to find the book and find my work. And find the amazing partners that are working alongside this project that are doing this work day in day out.

Melissa  

Awesome. Well, I will share all those links in the show notes, so people do not need to just Google them there. There's an easy place for them to find them as well. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story and for writing this incredible book. Again, I'm really excited to share it with even more people out there 

Mike  

Thanks, Melissa. Appreciate your time.