A Startup Executive Psychologist On Navigating Cofounder Conflict with Dr. Matthew Jones

Successfully navigating cofounder conflict is an important, yet often overlooked, topic which directly impacts the success and sustainability of startups. When conflicts arise between cofounders, it can disrupt the entire organization's functioning and hinder progress. Startups are already operating in high-pressure environments, with limited resources and tight timelines. In such circumstances, the presence of unresolved conflicts among cofounders can exacerbate stress levels, create a toxic work environment, and impede effective decision-making.

Understanding and addressing cofounder conflict allows entrepreneurs to proactively mitigate the risks associated with internal tensions, foster healthy relationships, and optimize their chances of achieving their business objectives.

This week on the show I’m introducing you to an expert on the topic of navigating cofounder conflict. Dr. Matthew Jones is a startup executive psychologist and coach to entrepreneurs. He’s worked with founders backed by many of the big-name VCs like Y Combinator, Sequoia, Andreessen Horowitz, and more. He specializes in helping cofounding teams improve their communication, teamwork, and decision-making.

In this episode, we explore what Matt has found drives much of the conflict amongst cofounding teams, how he helps his clients to navigate these challenges, and more.

Be sure to download Matt’s free e-book, “Stop Cofounder Conflict” - 

Stop Cofounder Conflict

Find Matt online:

• Free eBook, “Stop Cofounder Conflict”: https://stopcofounderconflict.com
• Website: https://cofounderclarity.com
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/Dr_MatthewJones
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-matthew-jones-7a832a37

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Connect with your host, Dr. Melissa Parks, elsewhere:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissacparks/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melissaparksphd

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melissaparksphd/

Website: https://melissaparks.com/

Schedule a free 30 min. discovery call with Melissa to see if coaching with her would be a good fit: https://melissaparks.com/free-consultation-call/

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If you’d like additional support for your mental and emotional well-being as a founder please visit Melissa’s website for a list of resources to help you find a coach, therapist, or peer support.

Transcript

 Melissa  

Hi, Matt, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Matt  

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Melissa  

Me, too. We connected. I don't know, at what point in time a few months ago, I think over on LinkedIn. And I've just really enjoyed all the content you've been sharing over there and learning more about your area of expertise. And I'm so excited to dive in today and get to share it with the audience, too.

Matt  

Thank you. Yeah, it's been fun to connect. And I'm excited to cover. It sounds like potentially a wide range of topics.

Melissa  

Yeah, exactly. I told you before we hit record, like an hour is usually enough time. But the truth is, I always seem to also wrap up interviews by saying, I wish we had more time right now. So we might get to that point in our conversation too. We can always have to come on a second time if we can't cover everything. So I always start by just I love hearing people's stories about how they got into the world of entrepreneurship. So even before we dive into your area of expertise, with co founder conflict, how did you become an entrepreneur yourself?

Matt  

So I'll give you the medium length version of this story, which was actually in high school, I had the fortune of working with a licensed psychologist in his practice. And I was doing all sorts of fun things like scoring psychological assessments, and kind of doing waiting room activities, you know. And that was my first aha moment of Wait, you're telling me I can learn this really cool subject matter about people and how they think and how they work, and I can own my own business? This sounds like an amazing experience where I don't have to have a boss, I can be my own boss. And so this is where the seed was planted all those years ago. And so the way that I got into it more recently was, I was in graduate school, and I had two friends who were starting companies at the time. And they started working together, and I saw them grow it into a multimillion dollar business, it was very successful. But it took an immense toll on their mental and emotional well being and on their friendship. So they kind of pulled me in and I did a little bit of armchair coaching for them, they found it really beneficial. And that's actually how Cofounder Clarity was born. And so I've done you know, your kind of traditional mental health counseling, I've done as a licensed psychologist, psych assessments and all those really fun activities that I enjoy, and built my own practice there. But my bread and butter, the main thing that I do at this point is actually working with cofounding teams. And so that's kind of how I got my start.

Melissa  

Yeah, I love that. Because when we coming from a background in mental health myself, it's it's just so unique, I think of like I had told you before we talked before we hit record to. So often, I think there's more of a winding road for therapists. And I think you hit the jackpot, really, with just like finding it early on. And getting more of, well, not completely straight shot, but more of a straight shot into this really what sounds like a really exciting and fulfilling career for you.

Matt  

Absolutely, I mean, I care so much about the space, it's, and I think what's unique about psychology in general is it's an endless path, right? We can continue walking it and learning more, even as we age, even as we go through various life experiences. And we have the opportunity to follow our passions and our intuition and where we're feeling called. And right now, I'm kind of all in in this direction.

Melissa  

I love it. I love it. So tell us what is it that lights you up about working with co founders, especially cofounders who are in the midst of of kind of difficult times in their cofounder relationships?

Matt  

Several things, but I would say first among them is the complexity. So I think business in general, has its own challenges and strengths or weaknesses. But whenever you start thinking about the cofounding team and their relationship, it adds a whole other layer of complexity. So it's not just an individual psychology, it's kind of a relationship. And it's not just a relationship within two individuals. It's two individuals who are also building a business with massive commitments to time, energy, effort, significant pressure, sometimes internally, financially, with investment investors and other things. And they're trying to do something really difficult together over a period of years. And so because of all these different factors, I find it endlessly fascinating. And I'm very curious about how teams are formed and what goes into that. Because, of course, it can be in contrast to a traditional marriage or something like that. It's not a romantic connection, necessarily, that brings a team together. These can be previous co workers, these can be friends, colleagues, I mean, there's all different types of relationships. And so it's the way that all these variables intertwine that keeps me really interested in this space.

Melissa  

I love that. Yeah, it's interesting because I think I had told you before that, at one point, my husband, I got into the kind of being interested about startups myself, because my husband was a founder of a tech startup. And he, what he really benefited from was somebody like you that they brought in, when he joined an accelerator program. And he was like, you need to do this. This is what you need to do with your your degree in psychology. And it was like, I don't think I could not that I couldn't do it, but it didn't light me up. And so I just love hearing, like you say, This is what lights me up. For me. I'm like, Well, that sounds kind of overwhelming. So I'm so glad, Matt that like, you hear this and you're just like, wow, like, bring it on. I want to, you know, see how more teams work together.

Matt  

Absolutely. And I think like, again, part of what is so different about cofounder coaching, as opposed to just marital therapy is also this piece around what's in the best interest of the business and sometimes having to align with that, right? So it adds another layer. And again, I guess I'm someone who loves those layers of complexity. So it certainly it does excite me.

Melissa  

How cool. So and tell me more about what are what about some of the key differences, you find them with the teams that you find that are high performing versus the ones that do have those areas of conflict?

Matt  

Well, one thing that I tell most teams that I work with, is that the difference between high performing teams and everyone else is not an absence of conflict, it's actually that they've learned to navigate conflict more effectively. Because the truth is, when there's disagreement and a lack of consensus, there's an opportunity to learn a different perspective, to learn more about how your partner thinks, how they operate, the way that they are perceiving the same data set that you are, in a different way. And so I think the teams that do this really well look at those as opportunities for growth and learning, and have the shared language and skills to be able to, you know, enter those dialogues more gracefully, and repair afterwards in a different way than teams who don't, and experience conflict as something that is either threatening or needs to be avoided, or leads to like circular multiple hour conversations that are super draining. And so those are some of the differences at a high level, it's actually not an absence of conflict, which is one thing that I find very frustrating is this myth that the most successful teams just never fight. They're just a perfect match. And this is a myth perpetuated by the VC ecosystem and other folks, it's an oversimplification, I think. Conflict is ubiquitous, it's everywhere. And it's just how it's managed. That makes all the difference.

Melissa  

Oh, yeah, I'd love that. Because you would also mentioned kind of some comparisons between marriages or related romantic relationships, right. And these cofounding teams, and that's the same thing I've heard about, you know, the research about about romantic relationships, right, is that there's no perfect romantic relationship, either. It is, yeah, it's about learning to navigate things.

Matt  

100%. And to your point, and I'm not saying this is a one to one similarity. But on the other hand, I have a hypothesis that part of the Gottman marital team they talk about perpetual problems, as about about 70% of recurring disagreements and couples, what they're talking about is the fact that they're different personalities, with different values with different ways of seeing the world. And because of the nature of being different human beings. There's just areas that that sync up in alignment and a substantial overlap that don't. And my my hunch is that with founding teams, there's a similar very high percentage of disagreements and challenges that are not just like pure business problems, but are actually just due to you being a different human being than your partner. And therefore, the real thing to focus on is actually how you navigate that difference, not kind of doing it in a very clumsy, upsetting and frustrating manner. So there needs to be even more intent put to creating the shared language structures to help you talk about those differences and navigate them more effectively.

Melissa  

Yeah. And it's a curious because as you said, this is a myth that that's, you know, very widespread in the startup world. What has been your like with you trying to change this conversation and spread awareness? Have you received any pushback are people quite open to hearing about it?

Matt  

You know, it's funny you ask, I guess I've seen more resistance than I anticipated. I've seen resistance from even like founders themselves. Like some early stage, I was actually doing a retreat not too long ago for a venture capital firm who wanted a co founder specific track. And so I helped them construct some conversations and some exercises with those teams to really set them on a hopefully a better course from navigating these challenges as they will arise as the company grow. But part of what I learned was that founders are sometimes of the mindset that if I don't have this problem, if we're not having conflict right now, then I don't want to create a problem where there isn't one, by talking about our disagreements by getting into these more difficult, like artificially creating a disagreement, for example, whereas I'm looking at this as important preparatory work to help you build the language and the framework that you're going to use later on, because I guarantee you're going to see something differently. And so I was surprised to see that pushback from founders themselves.

Melissa  

Yeah, well, I just think about it with in terms of also my work one on one with entrepreneurs, and how it's kind of similar, where I see how much people benefit from proactively learning ways to take care of their mental health and build their emotional resilience. But so often, people need to go through it and realize, like how much they were lacking those skills, before, they're ready to, like, you know, prevent it from happening. And, and I hear, that's what you're saying to these cofounders, they don't know yet, that they're gonna be, they're gonna, like hit some bumps in the road, and, and you have the tools to prepare them to navigate those more, more gracefully.

Matt  

And I feel like, I think the deeper emotions, probably a bit of sadness and fear. But on the surface, I feel more connected to some frustration, which is, I don't want people to have to hit that rock bottom. And I see other founders who have that are more seasoned that had been through this a few times. And I've heard some really horrific stories, and I and you can feel the pain. I mean, I've talked to these people, and you can really feel how much that they've been through. And I just wish we could learn from that experience and take them at face value, implement some of these learnings earlier on and skip that entire process. Because I don't think you have to learn from your own experience of getting to that point of desperation.

Melissa  

I agree. That's my thinking too. And I do think maybe this is a bit of a myth as well, like that. You're, I don't know misconception, right? That you're supposed to earn this like badge of honor, right? Like burnout is a badge of honor. Maybe like your founding team falling apart is a badge of honor. We don't want that to be the case.

Matt  

Absolutely not. No, it's, it's playing with fire. And that's a quote from Noam Wasserman, who, I guess, like part of what's coming up as you say that? Noam, researched 10,000 founders. And part of what he found that I think is just a really fascinating and related finding to what we're talking about is that teams who are friends and founders are more unstable than companies that are founded by strangers. 

Melissa  

Wow. Interesting 

Matt  

Part of the theory. Part of the theory. Yeah, is that strangers and previous work partners are more likely to have some of those difficult conversations. Whereas if there's a pre existing social relationship, it generates such anxiety that they there's avoidance of giving really difficult and critical feedback to one another. What happens and this is what I see all the time is it builds up. So you have confirmation bias, and you end up creating these stories about the other person's intent. They're often inaccurate. And so you end up creating such internal frustration that you're not vocalizing. But then you're seeing all these data points that confirm your preconceived, horrible story about them being selfish, or whatever the case may be. And so it ends up leading to these really charged interactions. And again, these are things that I think are totally preventable, with effective communication strategies.

Melissa  

Yeah, that's so interesting. I wouldn't have thought about that. And it's interesting to know that there's data out there about the the friends versus strangers, cofounding teams, I'm just thinking as well, like, is there? Okay, because I know you said like, it's conflict is inevitable, like all founding teams are going to have conflict? Are there ever teams that you've worked with or, you know, come across that are kind of like a lost cause, so to speak? Does that exist? That that some places are just toxic environments? And there's no going back?

Matt  

It's a great question. In some ways, yes. And in many ways, I don't necessarily believe in a lost cause. And what I mean is, I believe, there are cases where separation is the correct move for the company and for the individuals involved. And in those cases, my job is to help people separate with integrity with respect, and while protecting the best interest of the company. And so I think there's a way to go about that, that can avoid litigation and preserve what you've built. And that's really been my focus. And so I don't look at that as a lost cause. I look at that as another really important opportunity for everyone involved.

Melissa  

Yeah, which I love because we talk a lot on this podcast about redefining failure. And it sounds like that's an example. Right? It's not a failure. It's a learning experience. And there's a way to move forward, and not have it be a lost cause.

Matt  

Absolutely. And I think just to talk a little bit more about the lost cause, where I see this play out the most is with teams who have really avoided those difficult conversations at times for years. I'm thinking about some bootstrap founders that are very successful that I've worked with for some time. And there's almost like a sibling, familial kind of component to the relationship where under everything, there is love for one another. But so much of what's happening between the two of them is relatively toxic, high levels of criticism, of contempt of defensiveness, stonewalling, these things that we know are really damaging to a relationship. And you see those telltale signs at high frequency and intensity, such that they they're hating their work, they're really dreading logging in and going to work with one another. And they they both want out, but also fear that outcome. And so sometimes, that's us then working to unpack those layers of resentment and update those internal models of the other person challenges stories that I was saying are inaccurate. And other times it's actually having a very concrete conversation about, you know, does this make sense for both of you? Are there alternative paths? Are there restructures? Are there things that we can do to help alleviate this tension in a more concrete way as well?

Melissa  

And you're making brings to mind the question, too. So when you're working with these co founding teams, is it always in a group setting or like, kind of a couple setting? Or are you doing one on one work at times as well?

Matt  

It depends on the team and their needs, I kind of end up doing several different things my general flow is I will do an initial call with both of them to see if it's a good fit and kind of have a high level conversation. If it goes well and they want to sign up, then what I do is I meet with each person individually for a bit of time to better understand their story, their perspective, build trust. And then I have them each take a cofounder satisfaction Index, it's a measure I created that helps me see a little bit of their strengths and weaknesses as a partnership. And I use that data then in our first session together as a group, where I walk them through the different patterns and things that I'm seeing, and then have them set some shared goals for engagement, but then the primary focus is yes, in those team meetings.

Melissa  

Okay. Okay. It's just so interesting to me to to hear more about it. I'm also curious to know, kind of at what point do people reach out to you? Do you is it kind of across the board, are there some kind of trends that you see when like certain problems arise that are certain, maybe points of where their company is at?

Matt  

There's several different patterns. Let's see if I can talk through a few different ways of looking at this. One are kind of this umbrella of friends and co founders who are relatively successful, but are noticing that extra component of the social relationship, getting in the way, in some respects, fears about losing their friendship, or their business and feeling like almost they have to choose. So that comes up frequently, as does kind of younger, earlier stage, folks, some of which are a little bit more proactive, which is nice. Another bucket that I see another category are these more seasoned entrepreneurs who might be a little bit further along in the process, but are having difficulties managing difficult personalities or other kinds of dynamics, especially as the company grows. So I work with some of that as well. And I certainly see people who are more or less ready for a change in some way, kind of a meaningful change. And so I'll step in at that late juncture as well. But I see several patterns of what people say brings them in, which are things like, you know, unclear roles and responsibilities. That's kind of like a recurring theme of we're just lacking some clarity there. They'll talk about vision and strategic alignment and saying that that's really off and they just like feel this consistent misalignment. Sometimes it's more along the lines of trying to decide equity and compensation and things getting challenging. There are times it's hiring and firing or fundraising or high growth periods, low growth periods, so it can kind of end up looking a lot of different ways. And those are some of the things that I hear most often automatically whenever people reach out.

Melissa  

Yeah, I just heard it. I don't know if I'm just jumping to conclusions about what you said. But you did say that's what people say. You said something like that's what people say when they come in. Is it at all that that that's where the point that brings them in, and then you end up working on other things. Were you? Were you hinting at that?

Matt  

Absolutely. I was hinting at that. So the way that I look at it is that you know, that might be like the highest symptom that's visible and that they can talk about what I often say see is that there's deeper things involved like power and recognition. And closeness is a big one as well, depending on on the team. And so we'll get to some of those deeper layers as well. But I guess the deepest layer, or like, perhaps the simplest way of saying it, is that I think the real core cause of conflict is not bad intent. It's not just these business level issues. It's more often an unspoken emotional issue that's not being articulated. We'll work through. So I would overall, say that the core cause of conflict is speaking different languages.

Melissa  

Interesting. Yeah, it sounds like that's part of your work is to help them to speak the same language.

Matt  

It is, that's the entire purpose of what I do actually is helping them maintain the horizontal alignment, as I call it. So I guess just to go into a little bit more detail, I think teams speak three different languages. There's the operational, the psychological, and the archetypal. And so the operational language is the default setting. And this is, again, kind of more of the business perspective, getting things done. It's rational, it's logical. And so this is the way that most teams communicate, it doesn't take that much effort. And in general, it leans towards efficiency. But if everything becomes a nail, and that's the your hammer, it ends up being a very ineffective tool. So what I mean is in the language of psychology, this is the language of emotions and contrasted language of business I was just talking about, and this language is slower, it's more deliberate, it requires many more resources requires you to be more present more embodied. And this is something that most founders really struggle with. They lack the language or lack the skills to do this consistently. And so the main issue that I see is actually arguing about some of these psychological dynamics using the operational language. This creates a mismatch, because you're going in circles arguing about equity and compensation or roles and responsibilities. But what the conversation you're not having is actually about the fact that you feel less than your partner, or you feel like they're on the power trip. And that's really frustrating. Whatever the case may be, it's those deeper psychological layers. And so that's really the place that I help teams go to, while also noticing this third level, which is the archetypal language, the archetypal language is the language of the unconscious. So what the young kids call the vibe. And so yeah, that's what this is the vibe, it's like it's on, it's off. This is like, whatever, there's synergy. And you kind of feel that connection, like, Oh, we're really flowing, like, that's awesome. Or whenever things are not working well, that you're either walking on eggshells, or you have that sense of dread, or it's like this dark cloud between the two of you like, that's kind of an unconscious communication on the on the health of the relationship. And so my job, again, is actually to help us name some of these dynamics and listen to ourselves, and maintain alignment so that we're not just sitting there arguing about doing cost of living increases with your company this year. And whether or not that makes sense, given the macro economic situation, we can actually get down a level deeper and talk about the fact that you feel very angry and blocked in the decision making process.

Melissa  

Yeah. So fascinating to hear some of these frameworks and just philosophies that you've developed through through this work that you've done. What I was just coming to mind for me is, so I just know from my own experience, working with clients that often when you, you know, they come with this one thing, and then you're like, Okay, actually, we gotta go a little bit deeper. I'm so curious, what is the response from people when you're like, Okay, no, it's this isn't just the organizational language, we've got a ticket to the deeper emotional language. How do people How do your clients respond to that?

Matt  

Oh, as you can imagine, it depends on their personality. So some people I think, feel a sense of relief. And they're like, oh, like, Absolutely, like, Finally, we're gonna be able to get into this stuff. Other people, you know, more of the prototypical engineering, thinking oriented types might not gravitate toward that. They might say, no, there might be some resistance or just a lack of practice in tapping into emotions, sometimes difficulty labeling them and so for some, I've actually had them pull out a feelings wheel and do other things as needed. But yeah, so we kind of have to meet people where they're at. It's kind of a wide ranging spectrum. But the people who I think get the most out of this process are either kind of call that direction or recognize that there's something more that's going on that it's not just a simple, you know, easily solvable disagreement. Or they're open to that idea.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned the feelings wheel because I use that a lot with my clients too. I feel like it's like, Okay, let's go back to you know what we should have learned in elementary school about feelings. What hopefully the next generation is learning now. And and let's bring that in, let's just, you know, start with the basics and some, for some people, I think that can be a really nice approach, actually. Because it's like, okay, not just bring it down to the basics, this is important. And it's can feel less overwhelming, I think, to then just talk saying, let's talk about emotions.

Matt  

Yeah, and I also think there's kind of a common misstep, where people will say, I feel and then what comes next is not actually a feeling, right? It might be a description, it might be a judgment, it might be, you know, I feel like you're using me or something that actually is not conveying an emotion. And so that can also lead to even more dysfunction. interpersonally. And so I think, even to your point, going a step back and really having them focused on okay, what am I feeling? Let me select it, let me talk about it is a helpful intervention.

Melissa  

Yeah, it's so true. And when you said, you know, you were leading into that, the first thing I thought was, yeah, I feel like you are doing X, Y, and Z. It can so easily turn into a blame game, when really like, that doesn't help anybody's emotional intelligence.

Matt  

Wilson Yeah, the I feel like you is something where I largely interject and cut that off.

Melissa  

I'm so curious, because I've heard some other people recommend like, Okay, if you have a cofounder, go see marriage therapist or like a relationship counselor? What are your thoughts on that? Because I mean, people like you exist, who would actually, you know, be I would think even more well versed, and be able to help those people. Can you talk a little bit more about what you kind of what maybe some of the differences would be about seeing you versus seeing just a general management therapist?

Matt  

Sure. So as I look at this space of people who work with cofounding teams, I see three different profiles of coaches, I see x operators, trained coaches. And I see therapists working with entrepreneurs, and coaches with psychological expertise. And they all have different pros and cons. And I think they all can can work in this space. And so the ex operator turn coach is someone who is a previous founder who's gone through generally some kind of awakening experience, feels called to the work, wants to give back wants to give other people the support that they were missing. And I've seen some coaches in this category, who are really dedicated to the work and really care about it. And what they can offer founders that some of these other categories cannot, is the shared lived experience. And that can not only feel emotionally supportive, but even though they'll say that they don't necessarily give tactical business advice, at times, that does come out. And there's some benefit to that as well that some of these other folks might not be able to do. Like going to the other side, the therapists who work with entrepreneurs like some of these marital and family folks, what I see is that they have the requisite skill sets, they have studied the systems theories, the marital therapies, they understand the the frameworks and the lenses to view these issues through. And that's helpful, I consider that to be kind of foundational, you need to have that my opinion. But it's insufficient in that where a lot of these people have challenges is actually the business side of things. The lack of business insight, and expertise does create a challenge, I think, because you're not just dealing with these two individuals in isolation, there's a certain context of the business, that is its own entity. And that's absolutely important. And so sometimes people will work with, you know, therapists, and because I guess, as a pro, as well, by far the most effective, and so if you're, you know, really tight on cash, that can be a great, great route to go, as well as potentially taking insurance. And these people are generally hard to find, but my sense is, more and more people are going to be entering this space in this capacity. So that's actually a good thing. But they'll come to see me afterwards because they're like, Okay, we made some improvements and how we're listening to one another, but this entire issue of our business has not really been adequately addressed. And so I might be able to go into more detail and we can like break out a ratio, racy sheet and get into the weeds of of actually defining those roles and responsibilities. So final group here, the coaches with psychological expertise of which I'm a part is kind of a group of people who both have some of the psychological training and or continued education and have been doing this long enough or have lived experience where they are fluent in being able to speak some of the business and they understand that context and the macro and micro shifts that have to happen as a team grows and progresses throughout their entrepreneurial journey. And so biggest con here I guess, is probably price because we bill like executive coaching more traditionally, and so it is more costly. Uh, Uh, and the pro though is is much more versatility and being able to have those, those more business oriented conversations, and the more deep psychological conversations as well.

Melissa  

Yeah, thank you for really diving in. And yeah, explaining all those different categories to. It's interesting because that's what you're describing is similar to but like on out again on a one to one level of what I found with people is that they often come to me after seeing a therapist or even a therapist with coaching experience. But who doesn't have that, like a kind of experience with working with entrepreneurs with working with startup founders. And I remember when you and I spoke before this call, before this interview, you mentioned that the importance of cultural competence and I hadn't thought about it in that language before, but that's exactly what you were just speaking to now is just having the importance of having that cultural competence.

Matt  

Absolutely, yeah. So from the therapist training perspective, because I'm almost trying to swing and identify more as a coach at this point, but which is never before happens. So this first time saying it. But no, the truth is, like from the traditional therapist lens, what's often missing is the cultural competence of working with this population. And so as an example of this, I worked at an LGBTQ treatment center, specifically, where there was a huge emphasis on learning terminology and training. And I mean, like a recurring seminar, and so much intent. And energy was given to helping educate everybody on the space. So that whenever we're working with clients, there's a degree there's, there's less that has to be said, and less that they have to educate us. And so I think that that was all super helpful. And similarly, I think that's part of what's lacking right now in the in the entrepreneurial space.

Melissa  

Yeah, well, it makes sense, right? If you, it just seems like I'm thinking a comparative too would be like, if you're a coach, or a therapist who specializes in helping doctors, right? Like, how, you know, how effective are you, you're gonna be able to offer some skills, but how effective are you going to be if you don't have some of that awareness of what their job demands? And I don't know, I don't I specialize in working with doctors. I don't I can't take this further. But it just, I think it's really important. And I like what you said about that you think more people are going to more professionals are going to be entering this space. And hopefully, this training can develop as well to increase the cultural competence.

Matt  

Yeah, so if you or anyone else wants to jump on that, let me know.

Melissa  

Okay, not this week. Got a lot of my schedule that yeah, maybe maybe a future conversation to have? I would just okay, um, let's you have so many questions. It's almost like which one do we head to next? What about it? Have you ever worked with founders or given thought to like what founders can do if they're in the process of building their cofounding team? Like any tips before the team comes together?

Matt  

Yes. Can you tell me more about like, what?

Melissa  

So what I see a lot coming out are things like different apps and online platforms and things to help like, almost like a matchmaking for co founders. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are about that, like, Is that helpful? Is it important to like, are there things people should be thinking about in advance? Because I'm just thinking about how you said about sometimes, you know, strangers have the most success? So is yeah, what is important here before you build your team?

Matt  

That's helpful context, I think there's several factors to think about, in general, these services can absolutely be helpful, especially to learn more to find, the more the complementary skill set you're looking for. Regardless, part of what we know is that the vast majority of co founders do not put a lot of time, energy and effort into dating their prospective co founder. And so they're, they're like good questionnaires and things online questions to ask conversations to have with a potential co founder. And I recommend doing that, because the thing that most people don't consider, especially in a venture backed company, is that you are in a legally binding agreement, adding in high financial pressures, high expectations from day one, and it's not just a one year process. And because it's a multi year journey, this is somebody that you need to know really, really well. And when I think about entrepreneurship, I think about regression, psychologically. And what I mean is all the different pressures that are on you will cause a state of regression or going back to earlier modes of functioning. So your defense mechanisms, your coping strategies, your the way that you act, whenever you're under distress, all of those will come out in this journey. And so because of that, it's going to show up interpersonally with your co a founder. And that's the blessing of this opportunity is it's an opportunity not just for growing and scaling your relationship with this person, it's also an opportunity for self growth. And yet because of that, just trying to get back to the to the question a bit. I think part of what's so challenging is that there's not enough attention given to the selection process. And so that's where whether it's matchmaking going through these questionnaires or other things, it's something that I absolutely recommend. I also recommend having more conversations about the exit from day one, more or less creating a co founder contract, I think it'd be really helpful. So this can be even informal, and not necessarily a legally binding thing. But talking about roles, responsibilities, your ideal exit scenario, what happens if you to reach an impasse, and one of you needs to exit like, what what would that look like? What are those terms? So going through all these exercises beforehand can be really helpful?

Melissa  

Yeah, okay, great. That's some some great tidbits there for people who maybe are in that situation where they're, you know, preparing for their next venture getting ready to launch into startup life. I would love to know to well, actually, I was gonna ask you one question, but I'm gonna go back to a question I didn't ask you yet that I want to hear more about, about your ebook, which I just downloaded myself. And I'm excited to dive into stop co founder conflict. Can you tell us more about that?

Matt  

Sure. So I'm in the process of writing a full length book. And that's something that I did for like the last eight months. And now I've decided I need to kind of start over which I think is kind of a funny part of the book process. But I'm going to start over and refocus it, tighten it up a little bit. But that's something that should come out, hopefully, the next year or two. And in the meantime, I wanted to release this as more or less a little teaser, that gives you a little bit of insight into the content and the direction of the larger project. And so that's this ebook. So it goes through kind of a high level of the way that I think about co founder conflict, some of these more common causes that are a little bit deeper than those entry points, and then goes into a couple different solutions that are more tactically oriented that you can implement right now to try to turn things around.

Melissa  

Well, even just the little glimpse I got of it, it seems really, I don't know, just full of great valuable content. So I can't wait for your book to come out. And you know what, we'll be anxiously awaiting the next year or two. I know you and I talked about that I'm writing a book as well. And it's, it's a marathon.

Matt  

It's a marathon, not a sprint.

Melissa  

But I'm sure I say that too, all the time to my clients. And I'm sure that you have that sort of or have some sort of metaphor like that as well with your clients. And yeah, it's harder sometimes I think when you're the one experiencing it, and you're like, okay, yes. Be patient. It's the marathon. It's okay. Absolutely. And that's gonna take me into my next question, which I wanted to ask you about your just your own experience on the entrepreneurial roller coaster? What do you do, what have you found is really helpful for you to be able to navigate that the ups and downs.

Matt  

Part of what I've let me rephrase part of what I am continuing to learn is that some of the ups and downs for me largely Are you know that some of those financial moments, especially if I have other life, things, such as hypothetically purchasing a house, having a second baby, none of this is real, by the way, and go and going through that. And then having like a slow month, or something like that, it just feels really scary. I feel like a lot of scarcity, and concerns from my family, and you know, all these kinds of things. But part of what I've learned about myself, is that it's usually not actually about the business. I think I'm believe me, I'm 100% convinced it is and that, oh my gosh, I need to do so many things differently with the business. But what I've learned is that it's actually more about some of the life stuff. And what does it say about me as a husband, and as a provider? What happens if, you know, it might be really difficult for me to be present in this chaotic time and my family were all of my unconscious challenges are coming up? And how can I be with that more and make more space for that. And so that's a continued work in progress. Because believe me, I'd much rather avoid it and per separate on the business, but what I've learned to do what I've taught myself to do, in addition to ongoing therapy is doing a bit more journaling. It's something that I need to make more space for and continue to do especially in acute difficult moments. And I just kind of do the journaling which is I'm gonna get all this out. I'm just let it all out. And that's kind of my release. But you know, I do like other practices as well meditation, other things. But what I noticed is my peace of mind does not come from those practices. Those practices are I actually view those as kind of like a symptom of I'm doing well. For example, if I'm doing all these things, but they're not causal. And so I noticed what I have to do is give myself permission to ebb and flow a little bit to recognize, ooh, I'm in this moment of suffering and difficulty. And I need to embrace that I need to make a little bit more space to process it. And if I'm not able to meditate right now, that's okay, it will come back as I start flowing back in this other direction. And that's part of the trust that I'm trying to build with myself is that those those things will return to my life.

Melissa  

I love that it really makes me think about how we started in the conversation and about you saying that, you know, there's the myth that conflict doesn't exist, right? That you can, you can have a co founding team, and it won't exist. And I think, what I hear a lot and what I think you're speaking to is that there's also a myth in the entrepreneur world that like, you can avoid the roller coaster right, you can avoid those ebbs and flows. And you've learned I've learned that to like, it's all it's more about accepting them.

Matt  

It's more about accepting them and learning how to move with them, as opposed to fighting. So I think the whole like, and this is where, by the way, some of the stoicism goes wrong, stoicism should not be the avoidance of an effect, or the suppression of emotion. And I think it gets a little bit mixed up sometimes. And so there's there might be a myth that we need to as entrepreneurs, not feel the ups and downs and to stay even keel and like push all that to the side. But all that really does is it leads to somatization, bodily issues, difficulty sleeping, it has this ripple effect that is absolutely detrimental to performance. And so really, it's focusing more on what's coming up and creating a little bit more space for that, giving yourself a little bit more grace and permission to be human. And then the tides will turn, you'll have even more resources to go full speed at a different point.

Melissa  

Yeah. Oh, I love that. Okay, yeah, this is the point I warned you about where we get into the point where I'm like, Okay, we could talk for another 30 minutes about this. But we have to wrap things up. So I always ask people to come on the show. If we could go back in time to when you were starting your entrepreneur journey. What sorts of kind of advice or encouragement would you want to give to yourself?

Matt  

What would just came up is based on exactly what we just talked about. So keep in mind, my entrepreneurial journey, like if we want to, like go all the way back to me starting your yard care business that was not super serious, we can do that. But really, it started in the heart of hearts and the most real way more recently, so for me much later in life than other folks because I did so much graduate school. With that said, my advice would still be to recognize it's not about the business, there's something else going on in myself that needs tending to and attention. And if I can give myself permission to do that more fully and more effectively, then the business will take care of itself. Because what I know about myself is that I'm someone who loves us. And it's not just about money, it's not just about getting, uh, you know, filling the hours that it's a deeper calling. And so I need to trust that know that about myself and recognize those things will fall into place in time. It's not going to require that brute force effort. And so therefore, give more time to these other parts of myself.

Melissa  

That I love that. All right, Matt. So we have to wrap things up. But you know, important things here, how can listeners find you?

Matt  

You can find me at cofounderclarity.com. This is my primary place of being online. I'm also on Twitter and LinkedIn. So you can find me on Twitter at Dr. Underscore Matthew Jones. So I'm pretty pretty active there. And then you can hopefully search and add me on LinkedIn as well.

Melissa  

And don't worry, I will add all those links in the show notes. So it's very easy for people to access them. Because I'm sure you're gonna have people reaching out to get in touch with you. And also add the link for people to access your free ebook, too. And we don't want people to miss out on that either. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Matt. And I can imagine well, okay, we'll definitely do a follow up when you have your book out. But maybe we'll get you on here before then as well.

Matt  

Cool. That sounds great. Thank you.

Melissa  

Thanks for the great conversation.

Matt  

Yeah, this was fun.