The Importance Of Creativity and Community for Entrepreneur Well-Being with Tova Safra

What role does creativity have in your life as a founder? Do you make sure you find ways to protect and prioritize it?

In this week’s episode I’m introducing you to Tova Safra, a solopreneur turned tech startup co-founder. In this episode we dive into the importance of creativity in her life, why she thinks entrepreneurs should embrace shiny object syndrome, and the importance of having a social infrastructure when you’re working alone.

Tova is Cofounder & Chief Design Officer (CDO) at Groove, a digital coworking space. Her expertise is in research-backed design, incorporating qualitative feedback and collaborating with people who use the technology she helps create.

Tova has two decades of experience designing all sorts of things people like to use, from textiles to apps, and is also a digital artist working with new technologies. Before cofounding Groove, she worked for large corporates, teeny start ups, and then as a solopreneur.

She believes the world would be a much friendlier place if we all gave each other just a little bit more space to be creative in it. Originally from NY, she lives in Jerusalem with her family.

Currently, you need to apply and get on a waitlist if you want to join Groove’s digital coworking space, but as a listener of the podcast Tova is giving you the chance to go straight in and start co-working right away (and connect with her) through her personal invite link: https://wegroov.in/share/mdZW

Find Tova online:

• Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tovasafra/
• The Groove blog: https://blog.groove.ooo/

Connect with your host, Dr. Melissa Parks, elsewhere:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissacparks/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melissaparksphd

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melissaparksphd/

Website: https://melissaparks.com/

Schedule a free 30 min. discovery call with Melissa to see if coaching with her would be a good fit: https://melissaparks.com/free-consultation-call/

Transcript

 Melissa  

Hi, Tova. Thank you so much for being here with me today. 

Tova  

Hi, thank you for having me.

Melissa  

Yeah, it's wonderful. And I just got a little tour of the space that your co-working space. That was kind of fun.

Tova  

Yeah, yeah, this is the this the co working space here is one of the only times in places where I can get actual quiet. Because as an entrepreneur who works most of the time from home, quiet moments are very few and far between, for better or for worse.

Melissa  

Yes, I can totally understand that work from home as well. And it's has so many perks, but sometimes I miss things even just like the commute, which I never thought I would say I missed.

Tova  

Yeah, yeah, it's not the commute. It's what you do with it. Like I listened to a really good podcast on the way here, I'm gonna do a Twitter spaces while I'm walking home. So like, it's kind of, you know, the commute is sort of how you move from zone to zone in your mind, I guess, like, yeah, that's good sometimes, but not all the time, which is why I like to work from home. But you're pointing out sometimes you need that. So yeah, you get it,

Melissa  

I get it. And I think that's just a perfect way for us to segue into our conversation. Because, you know, there are good things and bad things right about about being an entrepreneur. Before we jump into that, I do want to ask, just to give us a little bit more, you know, people have already heard your, your bio, they know a little bit about you, but how did you get into the world of entrepreneurship?

Tova  

So I think that there, there just came a time, when I was like, I just want to, you know, I just want to be working for myself, I've had sort of a roundabout route, I was a solopreneur before I was an entrepreneur working on Groove, which is my current startup that I co founding with a few others. Really special group of people, small team. And I have always, always, always, always, it's always been important for me to work on something that was meaningful to me, I think a lot of probably your listeners can relate to that is that there are some people that are just more sensitive to working in environments where whatever you're working on doesn't have an impact or isn't meaningful, or it just boring, right? Some people can tolerate that a lot better than others. And I just found that I, it was just hard for me to as a creative person to just be okay with that for long periods. And I was like, you know, what I have to, this was way back at the beginning of my career, as if, you know, I really need to work on things that are meaningful to me. And then once you know, I kind of progressed and I was working on things, you know, that were meaningful for me working for someone else, eventually, I realized that it was more fulfilling sometimes to work for yourself to have that certain amount of autonomy that wasn't available in maybe some corporate settings or some other team environments. And that led me to freelance work at the time. And so I've been a solopreneur twice the first time, I really didn't know what I was doing. I'm thankful for that time right now. Because I had to make all those mistakes in order to, you know, to learn. So the first time I really had a lot of trouble, I ended up kind of doing that for one, say a couple of years, and then kind of saying, all right, I'm gonna go back to employment, like, like, quote, unquote, regular employment working for somebody else. And then, and then eventually, a decade later, going back and say, I'm gonna give this another go. And that time kind of making it work a lot better. It was through that solopreneurship that I met my co founders on Groove, because they found me based on the services that I provided, which at the time were app design, I was doing app design and research, technological research. And we found each other because they were looking for someone to help them realize the idea, and that was how the partnership started. So I'm very fortunate to have, you know, to have all that, you know, and fortunate that I learned enough, the first time to try again, you know, and that led me to the second time that as a solopreneur, which led me to now which is, you know, working on the startup that I work on now is both is you know, is both fulfilling and challenging. And it's really providing me with a lot of satisfaction that I wish 20 years ago, I could have told myself Oh, you're gonna get there, you know?

Melissa  

Yeah, that'd be great. If we could just, you know, rewind time

Tova  

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Send myself a letter, you know?

Melissa  

Yeah. Well, what about what was that? What was that? I don't know, I want to say leap. I don't know if it felt like a leap for you. But what was that transition like, from working as a solopreneur, to, to becoming part of a co founding team for a startup?

Tova  

I was really nervous about it at first. So I have, we have a very small team right now, which is my co-founders, Sruli, and Josh, and we have a very pivotal, early employee member as well, who's, you know, she's doing as much as work as we are now working on community, her name is Taylor. So at the time, I was really full of nerves, and I spoke to Josh, who is our CEO. And I was like, you know, I, I was worried that I would lose my edge, because I think that in solopreneur, ship without having the team, maybe other was, would echo this, but without having a team, you really, you home your edge a lot, right, you you, you have to do everything yourself, you have no one else that you can, you can rely on everybody else for moral support. for emotional support, I have good social structure. But when it comes down to like, you know, the brass tacks, like, you have to have all the knowledge about everything you need to do yourself. So I felt at some point, like I had honed all the skills I needed, and they were sharp as could be. And then like, going back to a team was going to, you know, I was gonna get rusty, but say, like I had, I had a lot of those concerns, moving from a solopreneur to a team. And I feel like I at the end, I was like, at the end of it, why I chose to join was going back to those, you know, original thoughts I had earlier, which is like, no, I need to be doing something that's meaningful. That's the most important thing. You know, this team is people that I really enjoy working with, and I respect and I, you know, want to be doing this with them. And so I just jumped in and didn't look back. And it was the right, it was absolutely the right move. I think I think that a lot of who I am is making those kind of leaps, you know, I think that's important. And entrepreneurship and intrapreneurship is just like see an interesting leap and just kind of take it. So I was lucky that he was able to sort of allay my fears, and I just did it.

Melissa  

You just made the took the plunge we'll say, 

Tova  

Yeah, yeah. 

Melissa  

I'm so curious. Because I'm always wondering like, is there a type like, a people like naturally born entrepreneurs? Or do they develop these skills? Like, what do you think for yourself? Do you think you've always had those skills? Or have they been something you've worked for? 

Tova  

I think that that's a fascinating question that like, I feel like somebody out there is like writing their PhD about that or people organizational psychologists have like delved into that in some ways that I don't know. But it's a it's a really interesting question. And here, for example, I I've heard a lot of people. So I live in Jerusalem, which has a startup ecosystem, which is greater startup ecosystem, and of the country, a lot of friends in Tel Aviv, who work in tech, a lot of friends now in Jerusalem, in tech and product and things like that. And I'm sometimes confronted with this idea that like, you know, people will discuss amongst one another, should I go out of this tech company and have my own startup? Should I leave? Should I leave Facebook to do this thing I want to do on the side, and that should I kind of make that into, right? And what gets a line that gets thrown around a lot is who should be an entrepreneur, you should only go out and be that entrepreneur, if physically you have to, if you feel like you have no choice from inside, but that's the only thing that you can do. That's the only thing that you're built to do. And that all the other options seem bad. So that's an interesting way to put it. Yeah. And that's the perspective from the inside. Meaning I'm sure if you got lots of organizational psychologists together in a room and asked you to point out, you know, markers in different people psychological markers that would say that these people are entrepreneurs. That's not I don't know what they would come up with, but definitely from the inside circles of people considering whether to become an entrepreneur like that is what's going on in a lot of people's minds. And I think that for myself, there's is an added quirk, meaning I have that I have a quirk that that really drove me in that direction with two Is that one of my core values in life is creativity. And I come from an art and design background, I've worked as a designer, that's been my living for a very long time. And I will do anything to protect my creativity, because without that I wouldn't be able to survive. Right. And I guess that's what people talk about when they say, Well, I have to, I feel it in my body, that I have to be an entrepreneur, they might be talking about that creative drive, that won't let them rest that won't, that they just have to answer it. And so I think that over, you know, over the years, I realized that being self employed is a great way to, you know, to allow yourself space for creativity. There's, of course, a million other ways you can, but for me, I felt like it was good for that. And being an entrepreneur is a great way to follow your creativity and your will lead. And so for me, that kind of it clicked, right, like when I was when I was able to, to, you know, become a solopreneur successfully become an entrepreneur, I was like, Yes, this is where I am supposed to be. Because this is where I can be most creative.

Melissa  

I love that. You're making me think of a quote, and I'm gonna butcher it, but I'll check. I'll put it in the show notes later the correct one. But it's something like a, like a painter must paint a writer must write in order to be at peace with himself. And I think the same thing may be the as the entrepreneur must create in order to be at peace with themselves 

Tova  

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I think that that's absolutely true. I think that the creative impulse in each of us takes different forms. And it's hard. It's the same thing. But whether you're your work creative, when you call it like your creative artifact, like what comes out the other end of whether it's music, or whether it's visual arts, or whether it's sculpture, or dance, or whether it's different business ideas that you realize that you bring to life, right, it's all the same. neurons firing, it's all the same, you know, original impulse to make something from nothing. Yeah, that's, you know, that's what we're doing. I think that's really what people have moved to when they say, you should be an entrepreneur, if you if you feel like you have to write that's the drive, I think.

Melissa  

Yeah. Well, I one thing, I'm thinking too, as you're saying this, I mean, creativity requires you like diving into the unknown. And that's such an important thing for entrepreneurs as well, right? It's, there's so much uncertainty out there when you're when you're your own boss.

Tova  

Yeah, yeah, there is the uncertainty. There's, you know, there's financial uncertainty, there's personal uncertainty, there's so much uncertainty. But if you're on the other end of that, you're like, well, if, if I'm an artist, I'm a creator, then this is the certain then I have way more certainty doing this than I would have working for somebody else. So that certainty, more than makes up for the other certainty for most people who feel like they have to be doing it, right. Because why do you feel like you have to be doing because there's something too uncertain about doing other things? Right. So that's, yeah,

Melissa  

That's an interesting perspective. Yeah. That the alternative? Yeah, working at corporate or something would be Yeah, that that feels too uncertain.

Melissa  

Exactly. Exactly. Which is weird when you think. It's bizarre, but it's like, where are you looking? For the certainty, right? Because if you're working for that corporate, you have the certainty of salary for rather, I would go far farther and say, especially today, it's the illusion of certainty. That sounds true, because how, you know, you don't control any of that salary comes in, in six months from now, you might control freak times this month. But it's it's quite an illusion to think that it's certainty for years, we're not living in the 1950s anymore. So I think that you need to pick where you want certainty, right? Like, do I want the relative certainty of getting a certain salary or a certain amount of, you know, options or shares of a public company that I'm working out, let's say, and relative certainty or predictability, let's call it there's not even sorry, it's not certainty. Everyone can get fired tomorrow. Like, let's really be honest, in the climate that we're working in. Its predictability. It's not certainty. Do you want that kind of flexibility? Or do you want the predictability You have being able to whenever you have a creative impulse to be able to act on it, which for many people, they really do themselves emotional damage without that predictability. Over the years, they become stifled or they become divorced from their selves, or they become lost, or they don't know where they belong anymore, like all of these things, build up and build up and build up unless you are regularly exercising your creativity with predictability and certainty. So, yeah, those are the scales, you know.

Melissa  

Yeah, what I hear you saying too, is like, it might be a short, like, short term sort of sense of certainty. But in the long term, it's just can really cause you damage.

Tova  

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, you know, of course, it comes with anxiety over, you know, finances, right, because that like illusion of stability that you have when you're working in a corporate environment, right? Whether or not, it really is stable, it does kind of give you peace of mind in some respect, and then you have to learn to compensate for that, or you have to be more creative with money or planning or whatever it is. Well, you don't have that. So I don't know you haven't, I really think that it. It, it's, it's kind of a thing where for different people at different stages in their lives, like they will have to make that choice, and one will be better than the other. But again, I'm such a huge advocate of regularly learning from and feeding your creative impulses, and not neglecting that regularly, you know, so? Yeah.

Melissa  

Well, one thing that's coming to mind, because I know a lot of creative entrepreneurs, and I'm just wondering, sometimes I hear them struggling with things like shiny object syndrome, is that something you had to figure out? Is that something you've struggled with at any point? Or do you just go for it? Oh, what a shiny object syndrome?

Tova  

Yeah, because I've heard it actually explained two different ways. And I'm not sure sometimes.

Melissa  

Yeah, so when, when I think of it, what I think is that it's like, you have that creative impulse. And it's, and you just go for it. But at the detriment, sometimes of other projects that maybe don't feel as exciting, but need to be seen through. And so you kind of are just like, I'm going to do this, and I'm do that I'm gonna do that. And nothing actually ends up getting completed, because you're just kind of jumping from one thing to the next.

Tova  

So I've heard I've heard shiny object syndrome used in different contexts. And that's one of them. Yeah, I think that there are. And I think that even in the way that you've just described it, it carries the weight of people's shame around a not finishing things, or be trying, you know, trying too many things at the same time, or even just being really passionate about one thing, and then forgetting about it next month, right? The I do not think that any of those things are negative. I'll say that, like, I don't, I think that shiny out, I like shiny objects. I like sparkly things, you know, I'm not going to beat myself up over trying new things. You know, I think. I think that a lot of times when people talk about shiny object syndrome, what they're really saying underneath that we encounter this a lot with the people who use group or virtual co working space, the app and I'm co founder of, a lot of people will talk about it as they're beating themselves up for not finishing things. And it's less about it's less about the fact that I saw something was shot and was really shiny, and I went for it. It's more about the guilt of, oh, I find myself two months down the line. And I don't feel like whatever I did reach the resolution or completion or make the impact that I wanted, or did I just forget it? Or did I do something wrong? Or I don't know how to manage my time. It's like a spiral. You know? I think it would be a massive shame if people started labeling themselves with shiny object syndrome and started using it to say they shouldn't start things.

Melissa  

Yeah. Yeah. I hear what you're saying. And I love what you're saying too, because I haven't figured out like, how to deal with my own shiny object syndrome. And even as I'm saying that, there's been a lot of talk lately about imposter syndrome and how, why do we call it a syndrome? And I guess it's the same thing with shiny object syndrome. Like why is it necessarily call this a syndrome? Right, like you said, I like objects, maybe? Yeah, yeah.

Tova  

As making money, but it's normal for anybody. And it's normally for anybody who's, you know, an artist to have lots of projects going on at the same time. It's normal for anybody who's a musician to work on loads of pieces of music at the same time, like Yeah, the people I know, let's say have like notebooks full of music that they'll go back to something unfinished months later, like, haven't you ever seen like, let's say somebody stood up painter, their studio is full of unfinished things all over the place that help dip into this one. Now, this one right here on this one like, like, what does it matter? You know, it's better to have loads of things in progress, because then you can you're just exploring and you know, some of them will get finished. Some of them are not some of them are not meant to get finished. Like, that's fine. That's okay.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. And it sounds like it hasn't held you back, either. Right, like giving yourself the freedom to explore those, like creative impulses has really helped you in your as an entrepreneur.

Tova  

Yeah, I think it's good to look at something and be excited by it and try I think shiny object syndrome, just like, you know, shiny, shiny object method, like shiny object syndrome, like, I want to be able to see something interesting, follow an impulse and start something and see where it goes. And who cares if I don't finish it. Right. I will say that there's something different in so a lot of the work that I do, and you know, in product design and software design, you have to be more rigorous about method because it's a much more collaborative process. And it's a much more database process. And so there, if you have shiny object syndrome on a team, it can wreak havoc on a lot of levels. Because if you don't have proper documentation about what and what anybody's working towards, or you don't have alignment about what people are working towards, and a team or a person who was part of a team is working on 50 different things at the same time and not having the rigor to whatever complete that circle. Then, again, I wouldn't call that shiny object syndrome. I think people do themselves a disservice. I would call that just a lack of rigor, I would say, you know, you just have to have rigor about defining whatever the conclusion has to be for any given project and doing that conclusion. And it's not about how many things you start, it's about how many things you conclude. That's kind of that is like, conclusions are very important 

Melissa  

I hear what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's maybe some of the talk about shiny object syndrome. It's, it's when you pursue those creative impulses, but you don't, and it's just like a, I don't know, I'm just trying to think I'm kind of thinking out loud here. Like, I think it's the, it's when, like, you were saying, it's like when you don't conclude it, when there's when maybe things are a bit less organized. And I think maybe what we're talking about here is like finding the balance, right, of what works for you. And because at the end of the day, you do have to have a business, right, I guess that's that you need to you are creating something to make money also at the end of the day. Yes.

 Tova  

So there's like, you know, the, the, one of the contexts of shiny object syndrome that I've heard people talk about, it's like, oh, well, I started a podcast, or I started a blog, and I was really excited about and then here we are three months later, and I don't know what's with it, or I'm not excited about it anymore. Or like, why was it? It saps my energy now. Right? And that, again, is a situation where I would say, of course, you should have started it. Yeah, of course, you should have let it inspire you and gone with that inspired feeling to start whatever that venture was, you thought that you were going to get maybe, you know, something lucrative out of it. And now what's missing is the resolution. It's learning how to find satisfaction in resolutions, the same way that you might set it find satisfaction in the shiny, you know, following the shiny object in first place. Yeah. And so that resolution for each business looks different, right? So one resolution could be like, Well, I started the blog. And I really realized that I don't like making long form content. So what do I do now? Right? Like, I look at my blog, and I'll see did I get? How many leads did I get from it over the last three months? Or, you know, how many new you know how many new connections? Or how many, how many of the people who viewed the blog became customer, you know, converted from lead to customers? Or how many media features did I get because I did this thing or whatever, right? And then you kind of look, you, you look back and you say, Oh, actually, I got nothing, you know, like, I didn't get any of those things that I wanted, and I didn't really like writing it in the beginning. I was really excited. Right? But now, not so much. Right. And so then I think that what they're what that what I think a lot of people don't do is face the conclusion, where the conclusion then might be, I started something really cool. I learned a lot but I'm not willing to face the learning. Right? like fixing learning. If I was willing to face the learnings, I'd be like, You know what I learned from this that long form content doesn't isn't energizing for me, and I don't need a blog. I'm free now, like that is maybe not maybe needs a different name and shiny object syndrome. Maybe that needs to be like, some, you know, I'm free, something that captures the freedom that you feel when you've made a real conclusion, that's a freedom that you feel you made a real conclusion. Yeah. That inspection that you get when you learn something that's true for you. It's so important, because that's, that is what will get you out of that circle of like, guilt or self doubt that you've gotten from people labeling you as like, oh, Magpie shiny thing is all that stuff. It's like, No, I'm just doing a lot of things. I'm learning a lot of things. And that's great.

Melissa  

Well, and you're making me think, too, I mean, you know, this is the founders fears and failures podcast. And a lot of the times we talk about redefining failure, because I think for some people, it could feel like a failure, right to say, I started this project, and I'm, I'm not going to, it's not going to go to where I originally envisioned it would go. But if you discover along the way that it wasn't the right fit for it to meet your goals or to fulfill you, then actually, that's not failure at all.

Tova  

Yeah, no, that's a success. Like, I don't know if you've read Marie Kondo, the life changing, the life changing Magic of Tidying,

Melissa  

I've never read it. I know the concept, though, right? Like, what brings you joy, and all that I've used? I've tried to use it, um, without much success.

Tova  

So the concept is, is two parts. And the second part is harder for people. And the first part, the first part is that you, you look at the things you own. Or you have to ask, does it bring me joy? Yes or no? And then if it's no, you throw it, right. So like, I've heard, yeah, it's gotta go, right. It's like that recognition that it's got to go. And that's emotional, as much as physical. And it's, I'm bringing it up, because we're talking about shiny things, right? Like the metaphors for shiny things. And it applies in your home, too, right? Like, you know, the shiny thing. And now, someone has to force you to reckon with the fact that it's not shiny for you anymore. And you got to deal with all the baggage of like, oh, I have this self image that I would be a podcast host or I would be a blogger. And then really what it is, is for you, really, when we go for a lot of shiny things, we're also trying on identities. And when we are not excited anymore, by that shiny thing with a record record with, you know, why did I want that identity? What does it mean that I don't, I didn't reach it, or I don't like it, or I didn't get what I wanted, or all these things. These are very deep emotional processes that are ignited when we have creative impulses. And then that's also part of the, that's also part of the reason why art is therapeutic for people, right? Because it puts it puts them face to face with their impulses. So it's here, you know, sit here, sit here and reckon with this. But a lot of people because of the work environment they're in or the type of profession that they're in, or just because there's a million ways to avoid yourself. They never reckon with the full circle of whatever that creative impulse was. When there's enormous opportunity of learning for like, Well, yeah, I did a blog for three months. And now I don't like it what happened, like, that's an enormous opportunity for me to say, You know what, maybe instead of a long form blog, I'm going to start an Instagram account that only does x, or I'm going to start a Twitter account where I'm only going to say what I want to say and 100 words or less, once a day, and that is going to do better for me because exactly what I didn't like about writing a blog that would be able to do differently somewhere else. And that's how we learn. Like, that's how we reckon with ourselves. And that's how we learn what we should do next.

Melissa  

Yeah. Okay, I have so many questions and things to say what I was what was coming to mind for me, I was just, I had never heard of Marie Kondo's, philosophy, like applying that to a business. But what a fantastic idea to say, you know, just reassess, like, you know, assess your business what's and start saying no to things that what were you doing any more in your business?

Tova  

Yeah, yeah. I think that's something that really solopreneurs have a privilege of doing and entrepreneurs as well. I mean, I discovered as a solopreneur, because I became sort of an entrepreneur on a team after I had been a solopreneur for a while, but I think if the other way around, it would be an equal too, meaning anybody who is, you know, account sort of like accountable to themselves has agency at work, right. They have the Power to say, I'm going about my day, if I pay attention to which parts of the day really bring me joy, and which present they really dragged me down. And then how can I reckon with the parts that drag me down? Like do I investigate why they drag me down? Do I just push them aside and like giving that away by like, hiring them out or deciding I'm not going to do that anymore or reckoning why I started that project or like, looking at the data that tells me whether that project was successful or not, right. That's how we that's how we lead a lead a less cluttered business. Right. It's a parallel, like having a less cluttered home or a less cluttered desk. It's very similar in my mind.

Melissa  

Yeah. I'm just thinking back about the painter studio you talked about though, and it does not. There's something there that does not. This is so funny, but I speak Spanish as well. And I can't think of the English word right now. But it doesn't it doesn't fit. It doesn't fit to me, right? Like the Marie Kondo and like paint, like I'm like, What would Marie Kondo do in a painter studio like she would

Tova  

I think of Marie Kondo, she would say to that painter, you know which of these unfinished paintings when you're looking at them make you feel joy, which one makes you feel dread? Just kind of the one to make you feel dread. You don't have to finish those. Get rid of them. The ones that make you feel joy, finish them whenever you want. Keep them there. Right. I don't think that she I don't think that Marie Kondo would tell anybody to finish the painting is what I'm saying?

Melissa  

Yes, yeah. But he's like You started it. So you have to finish it? Yeah. Do we do that to ourselves

Tova  

You have to finish it! Yeah, we, we do that to ourselves all the time. It's like, well, you start something, you have to finish it. Because it's tied to the idea of integrity, right? It's like, well, who starts things and doesn't finish them only somebody who doesn't have integrity about their work, right. But I don't think that's threatening that the best entrepreneurs understand that if you started something and you learn from it, then you better not finish it. Because like, if you learn something from it, but it's going in the wrong direction, we learned because it was a very costly or you learnt that it's like, you know, damaging somehow to the engagement level of whatever you're doing. You better stop it right now. So I think that solopreneurs, and entrepreneurs have the opportunity to be more critical about the things that they start and wrap them up, you know, wrap them up, put them out.

Melissa  

I love it. Well, I'm so curious to know, Are you do you do creative things outside of your, your work as a co founder right now?

Tova  

So I mean, my work as a co founder is, is very creative, especially because the the side of the business that I work on is the user experience, right? Which is very visual, but I also just, I'm a practicing digital artist, as well. And so that is, you know, a part of me, and that's what I do, and I work on, you know, art for art's sake, like regularly. And this, actually this month on Groove the month of June, which is the month before, all my kids don't have school for a while, which gets very crazy. Anything. Yeah, I decided that I was gonna just take June and take an hour a day to dedicate to creative pursuits, but no pressure, right. So I have an hour, I have that hour a day where I'm like, I'm working on something, but I don't have to finish it. I don't have to justify it to anyone else. I don't have to justify to myself, I'm just exploring. I'm just like, you know, so like the other day, the way I chose to spend the hour was to just like, look at beautiful typography, wherever I could find it. For example, just because it feels good, very rarely, we do something in our business life just because it feels good. You just don't do that. So the so the platform that we run, right, what it is, is that you can whenever time of the day, you can press a button to start a virtual co working session and other people from around the world up to three people at a time. Which is for a total right, me and three other people will join you for this virtual co working session where you get on video chat for like a couple minutes only where you tell each other what you're going to be doing for the next hour. You start like work mode, which is 50 minutes of quiet time. And at the end, you come back together and say how it went. And now the reason the reason that I decided to do this kind of format for doing creative work every day is because if you don't state your intentions to somebody else, you're sometimes not going to be holding yourself accountable to things that could get pushed aside or kind of get progressive on or could get set. Okay, well that's it on important as all the other things I'm doing right. So so while we have people on the platform that use it for a lot of different things, right, they they'll use it for more. I don't want to say traditional, but more, you know, more routine work like, and like, you know, writing marketing copy are like the bread and butter of their business, right? Like I've I've chosen this in a lot of times for creative pursuits, because I know that for many people, creatives and non creatives alike, what's the thing that gets pushed to the bottom? Like, what you really enjoyed doing and what really makes you are? So I think that that's critical to it's critical for everybody, whatever that thing is that they really enjoy doing to just say, you know, sometimes I'm going to be accountable to that.

Melissa  

Be accountable. Yeah. To your creativity.

Tova  

Yeah, yeah. Whatever that is, for different people, right. For one person is needlepoint for one person is the counting. Right? It's, it's just whoever it is, whoever it is 

Melissa  

Yeah. I'm so curious. Do you know about the book The artists way?

Tova  

Of course. I have a lot of people. So a lot of people, when they hear me talking to I'm talking to like, oh, you should be doing the morning pages. A lot of people on on Groove because we have a lot of people in the creative professions as well, you know, just solopreneurs and solopreneurs, a lot of solopreneurs on there have read the artists way. And the artists, I know I've read the artists way, right, and it's just essential book for getting in touch with your creativity. So I have it at home, and I dip into it from time to time. And I don't I don't I use, the way that I use it is to like strengthen my own self talk, because she's such a master of She's a master of helping people regain positive self talk around self efficacy, and like, why should I try anything? Why should I do anything? Which is funny, because now that I'm talking about it, you remind me of how that's the opposite side of the coin of the shiny object syndrome, right? Because shiny object syndrome is like people saying, people saying, Oh, why did it start 10 different things, and then you finish reading them, right? And the opposite side is like a lot of times, people reading the artists way, right? Like it says on the back of the book that's like for blocked creatives, right? So they can't get something out. Right? And so they're beating themselves. They're beating themselves up, over like, or like, why haven't I produced anything interesting? Why haven't I made anything interesting? Or why are all my ideas so bad or generic? And it just highlights for you? Right? How you will just find something to beat yourself up about it. Rather, whether it's doing too many things, starting to make things or not starting enough things still. Don't always someone will always feel bad about whichever respect side of the spectrum they're on, which for me says okay, well, why I feel bad about either side. Right. You don't have to feel about No, you know,

Melissa  

yeah, I think that's what what Julia Cameron, the the author would say, right? It's like, it's all about strengthening that. Your inner artist, right. And I talk about that a lot with my clients, like your inner coach is what I usually call it. And it's, it's really powerful. I think it should be required reading for all entrepreneurs, in my opinion, but just because it's so helpful to Yeah, just thinking about like living a more creative life. And like you're saying, being just more gentle with yourself about what you're producing and how you're moving in the world.

Tova  

Yeah, it's a very compassionate book. I think that a lot of times, entrepreneurship, like, it's easy to be very brutal with yourself, right? Where if you're working in conjunction with other business owners who might seem like they're tough on ourselves, or they're tough for people, it is like an oil slick need to be very tough. And that's like a very compassionate book that says, like, you know, what, like, it's okay, like, ideas are fragile. Like, let's admit it, let's be okay with that. And that's so valuable. 

Melissa  

Yeah, I definitely agree. Well, I'm just curious. So with it sounds like you said, some of the people on Groove are entrepreneurs, solopreneurs. And some of them are more like in the creative space. Is it? Is it a little bit all over the board your users?

Tova  

Yeah, so it's really all over the board. I think that we have oh, like we've always from the beginning attracted a crowd that's like, you know, either work in creative fields, like, you know, do web design or, or music or podcasting, or things like that. A lot of times, it's the impetus to join a virtual co working space. It's like, you know, I'm working alone most of the time, and that's creative and satisfying, but sometimes, I just feel like I need some connection or If I'm working alone all the time, and it's from home that day started kind of blurred together. And I feel like a little bit like, I don't have enough to punctuate that time or structure that time. And I'm kind of like, not, you know, I need some extra motivation to get back on track or like, my energy's kind of low. Because if I'm not home on time, I'm not making those connections, right? How can so we work on with groups, we work on solving those kind of things, you know, for for that kind of person. And a lot of times, who is if it's taken that leap and decided to be a solopreneur at somebody who's very creative, or somebody who's adventurous, or somebody who's traveled a lot or is traveling or is a nomad, or people who live quite interesting lives?

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah, I love what you're saying, yeah, just solving some of those challenges that that entrepreneurs can face. Right? It's not just entrepreneurs, I hear but, but some, because that's what we focus on this show, right? As entrepreneurs and, and so it can be really lonely. And because even if you have a team, I think I read your team, you're not all in the same place, right? You're also working remotely with one of them.

Tova  

We are , a funny story is, is that when we even first started to work together, I didn't even know that my co founders were in the same city. And not even in the same city. They're like, literally a mile and a half away. For a while together before we even realized that we were that close by because we just like the default, working from home and this was during the pandemic as well. So we, we have this co working space, at we work we have this little office that we work just for kind of things like this, where it's like, Okay, after record a podcast, I can't be at home, because the dog is barking and the kids are making, like most of the time. I'm working from home. And, you know, one of us is in Virginia, one of us is in New York, two of us are here in Israel. At one point, we had others who are working with us from Brazil and from Poland. And, you know, we have contractor, you know, have really nice contractors that we work with in Greece and Canada. Like it's just for us, it's a given that people live where they want their lifestyle to be and not like where their offices just kind of sort of take it for granted now.

Melissa  

Yeah, right. Right. It's, it's because it is still kind of new, if you think about it, right? That that we're, we're doing like, yeah, we're doing that your company's doing that you're making it happen. And it sounds like yeah, you're helping connect people around the globe to with your, with your app it sounds like?

Tova  

Yeah, yeah, I think that that's a really important part of the dynamic, because part of what makes meeting new people exciting is getting like a window into a totally different place on Earth. Yeah, totally different way of life, or sometimes even a totally different profession, right? Like, when you kind of hop into a co working session, and you kind of get to interact with somebody who's in Jamaica, and somebody who's in Canada, and somebody who might be in Singapore, right? And you're like, oh, my gosh, so what's going on over there, what's going on over there, what's going on over there? And it, it really adds a lot to the feeling that you're not alone, even though you are working by yourself? Yeah, to know that you're part of this, like global kind of group of people that maybe took the same risks as you in life maybe, you know, went out on their own business journey with the same fears, or the same hurdles, or this or they're working on similar things and things like that, it can be very helpful.

Melissa  

Yeah, I don't know if you know, this, but I run an online community for therapists who are private practice owners, so that they're, like, therapreneurs, therapist-entrepreneurs, and we do co working as, as well along with other like business building things. And I can totally relate to everything you're saying it's so they're all around the world as well. And I just feel I used to live abroad, and I miss it so much. But every day I get to log into my computer and like, connect with the rest of the world. And I mean, if I would say like, yeah, it's just so powerful and cool, too. And so I just would encourage people listening to to try it out. If they haven't, right, it sounds like group is it's, it's the place to be.

Tova  

It's, it's really, it's, it's it's so fun. Like it makes work more fun than it would otherwise be. I'm sure that I'm sure that the people in your group feel that way as well. That you're doing important work and helping them have social infrastructure that they wouldn't otherwise have. And that's what we see ourselves is doing for solopreneurs around the world have various different fields, right? It's not just people working on certain things. It's, a lot of times people enjoy specifically meeting somebody else who's a solopreneur and entrepreneur in different fields that helps That's sometimes as well. And we're wanting to provide that social infrastructure for people who are like, Yeah, I don't have a team. But that doesn't mean that I don't, you know, that doesn't mean that I don't get emotional support or like that people have my back or that, like, I can see the same people every day when I show up, like, that kind of feeling that you would get if you are going to an office and seeing the same people. Sometimes it's very comforting. And that's also a big part of it. So that social infrastructure is I think, so, so important. And something that I think that the world is still recognizing the importance of as it's still relatively a new concept, right? Because if you had the office that you go to, you expect it to come as a part and parcel with social infrastructure. And then now that people don't have the same expectations from an office or from their jobs or whatever, then it has to come from somewhere else.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's so great that you're all fulfilling that need for people. I'm just seeing the time and we're, this is the worst part of the interview, we have to start wrapping things up. But I do so I always ask this question. But we kind of already got into it. So it's, it's if we could go back to the past when you were just starting entrepreneur journey? What piece of advice would you want to give yourself? So I know you already mentioned something right. When we're talking about though I wish I could send myself anything else that comes to mind that you'd like if we had this power to go back in time?

Tova  

Yeah, I think that I don't think about this for a second, you can cut this out if you want to think. But I think I think myself and others this? Well, definitely. This is something that I felt I think could be useful for somebody else, as well is that we are creative people sometimes. Sometimes I got into my head that like, if I followed my creative impulses, like either it would work or the or the either, it would come to nothing, or that there would be some kind of pushback or some kind of cost associated with it that like I would have to pay a price for doing something like either this person wouldn't like me or that people wouldn't like it, or whatever it is. And so I think that, like if I really had to go back, I'd be like, yeah, like, all of the things that you think will happen if you just go for it, or not the things that you're afraid of, like a lot of times the thing that you're afraid of happening when you just go with it, creative idea, or creative impulse. So if you think oh, people are gonna look at me, strangely, are people gonna think I'm this or that, or people are gonna not want to do XYZ with me, or this will never work or whatever, because of ABC. Like 90% of time, none of none of those are real, like 90% of the time. It's like, if you actually go with that creative impulse, yeah, you'll have challenges, but they're not going to at all be the challenges that you thought you had. And all those fears were really unfounded. Most of the time, our fears regarding these things are unfounded, completely unfounded. And so I think that that's important. That's important, that would have been better for me to realize it's important for younger people to realize is that like, you really won't know what the what the difficulty with something is, until you try it. And like a lot of the times the things that you assume we're going to be really difficult, they're actually going to be quite easy. So there's that. And there's also this idea that like, it's just I think I cared more about my self image more than I needed to, like people don't really care. They might think you're a little strange, but they don't really mind. You know? So that's also kind of good to know.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah, I think those are such important words of wisdom and fortunate we can't go back. We can't send a letter to the past. But I think there's, I like to think that there's something powerful just in like us reminding ourselves of like, if we could go back in the past, what would we what would we have wanted to say? And a reminder of what,

Tova  

And hopefully there's a lot of opportunities ahead to

Melissa  

Exactly, yes, I mean, well, that's what I do sometimes with my clients is like, we fast forward to the future and think like, yeah, if you're like, Yeah, I don't know, 20 years from now, but that self of you, like could say something to you. Yeah, it'd be but you Yeah, but that's something for everyone who's listening to think about on their own maybe their own, like, you know, journaling activity or something. But Tova where can listeners find you and learn more about you and more about groove?

 Tova  

Yeah. So I definitely would love to co work with you if you've been listening and think this sounds interesting. So let's, I'm going to give you my personal ShareLink into Groove, which, if you come in through that, then we'll be we'll be connected and we can to work together. So that's fun. You can find me also on LinkedIn as well. I can give you my LinkedIn link and at our website groove.ooo, come and visit us.

Melissa  

Perfect. I will make sure all of those links are in the show notes so people can easily access them. Tova, This has just been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Tova  

Thank you for having me. It was great.